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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 19, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
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Yeah it's too hot out to walk the dog, let alone do anything athletic.
A.T. Packard in August 1885 called "packing a gun" a "senseless custom," and noted about a month later that "As a protection, it is terribly useless.”
Again different times. Did you see the excerpts from the Centers for Disease Control study I posted back a ways? The subject is not concealed weapons, but rather the use of weapons for self defense. There are some interesting numbers in that report.
It's a tough call who should be able to carry concealed. Well vetted and trained? I mentioned earlier that an off duty security guard with a permit put a quick stop to the Clackamath Mall shooting in WA in 2012. He brought up his pistol and had a bead on the shooter but held his fire because there were people behind. But when the shooter saw the gun aimed at him he ran into a stairwell and shot himself. Obviously the last thing he expected to see there was someone else with a gun.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jun 19, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
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Nobody could complain about that. Someone who was trained enough to hold his fire isn't the problem.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 19, 2016 - 03:10pm PT
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Yeah it's too hot out to walk the dog, let alone do anything athletic
You pussies. Went up Bailey Cyn to Jones Pk and up the ridge from there
yesterday. At about 4000' we met a single guy in his early 30's. Seemed
really nice. Then he points at Mt Wilson and asked "What's that peak?"
I gave him the once over and decided he wasn't trolling me. Turns out
he's been up there a few times but never further. I decided he was mildly
developmentally challenged. We took the Mt Wilson Trail cutoff and he
took off on us like a gut-shot deer. By the time we got down about 1/2
mile from the bottom we caught him. He was staggering along like a
drunken sailor. It was 100 by then. We got some Gatorade into him and he
claimed he could make it to the trailhead. I had my doubts. I told my
medical pro to stay with him and to call me if he went down hill, so to
speak, while I went ahead to make the mile walk back to Bailey Cyn for our
car. I seriously doubt he would have made it that last 1/2 mile. Driving
him back to his car it turns out he has a PhD in Civil Engineering! LOL!
We're staying home today though.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Jun 19, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
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I posted this on the 'terrorist kills 49' thread and they just blew right by it as though it wern't there. I get it, maybe my post was interrupting their 'conversation.' Maybe this story is more pertinent in an actual gun control argument thread so here goes. I'm not sure if I'm honoring my friend's memory by posting this here, but I believe these discussions need to take place (in a civilized manner), and I believe the account that I'm posting here still needs to be heard.
Gun Violence
A few years back some really good friends of mine were attending our monthly RC airplane club general meeting at a room we rented monthly for the occasion from a utility company. Several of us were board members for the 200 member club where we host our Reno style RC Warbird pylon race series every year along with other RC flying events. I had stepped down the previous month after serving for four years as the club secretary.
One of the board members was an older security guard in his seventies who had a concealed weapon permit. He sometimes worked security details for various business but was semi retired. He was a jealous man with a younger wife in her fifties. He sometimes bragged about being in altercations in bars to protect her honor. I had disagreed with him on a few occasions regarding some club matters at our board meetings and he became weirdly confrontational with me. I believed he was an irrational unstable hothead and I began keeping my distance from him. Besides, fighting with someone about a hobby or other petty matters, especially at our age seemed pretty unwise and immature, and I didn't trust him after that.
Luckily, I was not in attendance at our meeting that night when the tragedy struck. I received a phone call from one of my friends who was there moments after the terrible event transpired. I had a hard time processing it and for a few moments and I was in total disbelief.
The back story is that one of the other board members named Jerry was single and divorced. He was close friends with the older security guard and his younger wife. The security guard had a fight with his wife and she left him and shacked up with the single friend, Jerry. A few months then went by and during that time the security guard had been making threats overheard by others about doing violence to his wife and to Jerry which tragically went un-acted upon.
On the night of the tragedy he showed up in the parking area in front of the utility company several minutes before our club meeting was to begin. He got out of his truck, walked up and confronted his estranged wife and Jerry, and then shot Jerry twice at point blank, murdering him in cold blood right in front of my three other friends.
Then he ran after his wife and chased her into the building while yelling about his intent to kill her. She ran into a bathroom to hide, as an armed utility company guard who was on duty cowered behind his booth and called called 911. Our club president, a big man, came out of the general meeting room where there were other club members present who were unaware of what was transpiring. The club president, who was a soft spoken unarmed Vietnam veteran, bravely stood up to the killer and said, "your not going to kill anyone, get the hell out of here!"
The killer backed down and retreated into the parking lot area, where he knelt down on the grass and shot himself in the head. Everyone there was detained for questioning for several hours after the police arrived, and the investigation went on for days. The article in the Sacramento Bee and reports on the TV news called it a lover's triangle that spiraled into a tragedy, which was partly true.
I don't know what I would have done if I was there. The killer didn't like me and I would have been in the parking lot with my three other friends if I were there. Had I been there and stood up to him, I probably wouldn't be writing this. I often think about what would have happened if I were there. Another fear is that if I were there, would I have displayed cowardice? Years later my heart still goes out to my friends who witnessed the tragedy, and although I'll never know what I would have done had I been there, the truth is, I'm really glad I wasn't there.
I don't carry weapons and never will. I own a few guns but only for target practice. They are stored and locked away so well I only get them out to use them about every five years. I recently took my 16 year old grandson out for his birthday to the gun range and we practiced for hours. I spent two hours with him before and after teaching him gun safety and about cleaning the weapons. He's been in ROTC for three years and wants to continue it in college after high school so he can be an officer and have a military career. He's doing great in school and I would never try to talk him out if his chosen path in life even though my wife and I are pacifists and never want to see him go to war.
Back to my story. That day our club president, by his actions, saved we don't know how many lives by standing up to the killer. It was truly an act of reckless bravery and extreme selflessness. He was honored later that year for bravery by the Sacramento police department and the city council. I have never written about this before but thought it was germane to the discussion here. I have omitted the full names of the killer and his victim out of respect for their families, although it was in the media and is public record.
Although my own experience with gun violence is second hand, this one incident has affected a large group of people that I know. The repercussions of such a senseless single violent act are many fold, and radiate into the community and the future, affecting lives for generations to come. Although the act was caused by a human being, IMO the gun can become the secondary catalyst and the multiplier of a tragedy. Any intelligent person who argues that guns don't kill people, people do, has not taken this consideration into the equation.
Happy Father's Day, everyone!
Cheers,
-bushman
06/19/2016
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 19, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
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Bushman,
I didn't blow right by it. Its awful. Total bummer that it happened.
But I'm sorry, as awful a tragedy as it was, the gun didn't walk over and kill anyone. The impetus, the spirit, or the prime mover....whatever you want to call it HAD to be a human being. Not an inanimate object.
I shared my story about a friend who was stabbed to death on a bus. something like 150 stab wounds. The knife didn't do that, a deranged person did that.
The thought process that supports a theory that if a person, a deranged person, didn't have access to a gun would simply shrug their shoulders and say "Oh well, I guess I'll just phone it in" is something I cannot get behind. And if I am (god forbid) faced with a lunatic I do not recognize the government or my fellow citizens as the keepers of the decision of the appropriate method by which I can defend myself.
I do not wish to tell anyone else how they should go about defending themselves, I simply ask the same in return. No more.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 19, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
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^^^Hear Hear!
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 19, 2016 - 06:33pm PT
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Can definitely see how banning weapon sales to people on a terrorist watch list would be such a burden...not really...I mean c'mon...seriously? Really? the "well regulated militia" part didn't mean anything?
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Jun 19, 2016 - 06:49pm PT
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I carry concealed every day, everywhere. No one except family and close friends even have a clue. I take responsibility for the safety of myself and loved ones seriously. It's not in the least out of fear of anything, quite the opposite. The government and police are not responsible for our safety, legally been tested in the courts. Look it up.
I have more training and range time than almost every leo in the area, with the exception of my buddy and his swat coworkers. I won't even train with law enforcement groups in the building anymore, too many egos and poor practices make it too dangerous for me.
Now to put this into a reality check for the masses,I am not alone in this practice. Almost everyone I know does also with the exception being a couple ultra conservative friends.
Burly Bob
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jun 19, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
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he's humble
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:01am PT
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You pussies. Went up Bailey Cyn to Jones Pk and up the ridge from there yesterday.
You're nuts! When I left Sierra Madre this morning at 5am it was 80 degrees already.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:01am PT
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It is high time to end the partisan separations that divide our political system into "us" and "them". The continued divisiveness only serves to plunge our great country into chaos and disarray. Therefore, I am writing to express my views on gun control. As a life-long firearm owner and avid hunter (I've filled 7 of 8 tags in the last four years in this state) I want you to know how I feel about gun control:
1. Please do NOT support any bans on specific types of weapons and/or weapon capacities. They are BS. They are driven by fear and unsupported by data.
2. Please DO support regulations that work... universal background checks for ALL sales. The system has actually blocked a significant number of sales to prohibited persons.
3. Please DO support healthcare. The people who commit horrendous crimes with firearms are often in need of mental health care and intervention, and in our current healthcare model it is often unavailable to them.
4. Please DO support a ban on weapons purchases to those on a terrorist watch list and/or no-fly list. Seriously? This is a no-brainer. While we're at it, please ensure that people who get on these lists have some recourse to be thoroughly vetted in case of errors. It happens.
5. Any chance you could vote for the availability of a nationally recognized CCW permit? This whole state-by-state thing really blows. I know, fat chance. Thanks anyway.
I fully expect to get a (disappointingly) non-personalized, canned response. That's just how this system works. So for the guy reading this, interpreting it, and passing on my thoughts to Mr. (representative here), please consider that I'm sincere in my convictions that we need to both support the 2nd amendment and prevent firearms from falling into evil hands. They are not mutually exclusive goals. Thanks.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:17am PT
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Good Post Gasoline.
This one simple line is something that repeatedly gets lost in the emotion of gun control frenzy.
The number of individuals in the USA who use firearms in the commission of a crime vs. the number of individuals who own firearms and do not commit firearm crimes, is extremely small.
From a statistical perspective, this is not only extremely small, its approaching nill if you apply any rational level of specificity to it.
Many people, even in our democracy, merely want to control others. Its the human condition and precisely why measures to limit guns that would have a measurable impact on law-abiding citizens should be opposed.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:28am PT
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As Ronald Reagan said,"There’s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons."
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:34am PT
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When seconds count the cops are minutes away
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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Please DO support a ban on weapons purchases to those on a terrorist watch list and/or no-fly list. Seriously? This is a no-brainer. While we're at it, please ensure that people who get on these lists have some recourse to be thoroughly vetted in case of errors. It happens.
In my view, this is an absolute mistake and I fully disagree. Ensuring..."while we are at it" that the list be vetted with recourse available is exceedingly dangerous.
Our government has already proven that its incapable of unbiased application of virtually anything. A secret list, managed by a secret agency that allows for someone to get off the list (after they have unknowingly already gotten on it) is ludicrous.
How do you get on the list? What does a person have to do in order to be on a terror watch list? Who decides what that criteria is? How do you change it? Who audits the list? These questions are endless.
Our government is spying on citizens (much less potential terrorist immigrants) all day every day. If they have reason to believe that someone is a terrorist and up to no good, then get a warrant and investigate them (the warrant joke being a whole 'nother ball of wax)
To give our government a free pass to put anyone on a list that de facto removes one of their most primary and fundamental rights - the ability to defend oneself - is shortsighted indeed.
For my part, I'm willing to live with whatever potential negatives that come from limiting the governments ability in this case. I hope others join me.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:31am PT
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This whole watch list and especially the no fly list (which the ACLU is against) is thin ice. Surely we want to keep guns from being sold to terrorists and other dangerous crazy people. But, allowing the government to take away a right from a citizen without due process, in most cases without the citizen even being aware, and then forcing the citizen to fight to regain that right is blatantly unconstitutional. What if such a process were applied to unreasonable search and seizure, for example? (Actually it's already happening ohp-uses-new-device-to-seize-money.)
Where are your first amendment rights going if you are put on a watch list or no-fly list because of things you say? You could lose your first and second amendment rights at the same time.
So how do we decide someone poses a credible threat? We need to decide on a process which does not take away American citizens' civil and constitutional rights.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:56am PT
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Meh. Its a compromise. How do you know if you're on a watch list now?
You don't, until they come knocking or you try to book a flight. And what's your current recourse?
Meanwhile, you could just say f*#k it and roll over for a blanket ban instead on, say, AR's and hi-cap mags.
Fact is, you're playing a numbers game. Betting the cost of a few random acts of terrorism will have less repercussion than a violation of rights.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:56am PT
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This whole watch list and especially the no fly list (which the ACLU is against) is thin ice. Surely we want to keep guns from being sold to terrorists and other dangerous crazy people. But, allowing the government to take away a right from a citizen without due process, in most cases without the citizen even being aware, and then forcing the citizen to fight to regain that right is blatantly unconstitutional. What if such a process were applied to unreasonable search and seizure, for example? (Actually it's already happening ohp-uses-new-device-to-seize-money.)
Where are your first amendment rights going if you are put on a watch list or no-fly list because of things you say? You could lose your first and second amendment rights at the same time.
So how do we decide someone poses a credible threat? We need to decide on a process which does not take away American citizens' civil and constitutional rights.
This ^^^^^^
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