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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Feb 23, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
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Finally someone with reserve volunteer fire department combat time to give us the down low!
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Feb 23, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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Good thing I didn't become an LEO , I'd shoot some idiot daily
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 23, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
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I'm a Ph.D. scientist and I firmly deny anthropogenic climate change.
Yeah, what field did you study? I know a guy with a PhD in Chemistry, something to do with super conductors, who denies evolution... he's never taken a Paleontology, Evolution, or related Biology class or spent any time critically evaluating the subject. He just firmly denies it because he "knows" evolution isn't true.
Just like you KNOW these LEOs were wrong... and I KNOW if anyone goes for a cop's gun they get shot and deserve it.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 23, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
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I only took the easy way out with a degree in Physical Chemistry. As an undergrad at CU I also had 4 minors: German, Anthropology, Mathematics, and Physics.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 23, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
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Brokedown
I'm not doubting your intelligence, just wondering what exposure you have had to actual climate/earth science.
I have a PhD in Earth Science and a very strong background in isotope geochemistry. If someone claimed there was a new high temperature superconductor (or other aspect of physical chemistry), I wouldn't expect anyone to take my firm denial of its existence seriously, especially without me proving I had spent a great deal of time studying the specific subject.
drunkone
... several times I was about to shoot suspects and they made better choices to comply with my orders.
And if they hadn't made better choices, they would deserve to have been shot. Unless of course you were ordering a hummer... in which case you should be fired.
Deserved: merited or earned
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 23, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
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mechrist-
I'm also a pretty well versed amateur astronomer, and have a very good appreciation of weather (thanks to the FAA and my pilot training). And yes, I've taken some Geology courses in the past. I also read something like 300 books a year on a very wide variety of subjects.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Feb 23, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 23, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
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I'm just saying...
I wouldn't expect anyone to take [me] seriously, especially without me proving I had spent a great deal of time studying the specific subject.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Feb 24, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
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Those three LEOs couldn't take down one guy without shooting him to death. But these LEOs set an example for them by easily taking down this hardened criminal:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Feb 24, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
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^^^
That was the fashion police. Took her down for those awful "five finger" barefooter shoe things. Thanks be to jah.
a lot of the cops were not well trained in making decisions.
C'mon now, they make hard decisions every day. Jelly or cream filled? Frosted or glazed? How about sprinkles?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 24, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
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One less jogging jaywalker. Whew aren't we now safer?
"Mam are you carrying any concealed weapons that could be conceived as a threat to myself or officer Dunkin' Donuts here?" "Don't you get sassy with me little missy".
Does her screams for attention constitute non-compliance?
Does non-compliance constitute resisting arrest?
Does resisting arrest justify excessive use of force?
Does non-compliance in the face of excessive use of force justify lethal reponse?
Does a citizenship that can turn a lame view toward excesses of power run the risk of bumbling Itself into a Police State?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 24, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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I wouldn't expect anyone to take [me] seriously, especially without me proving I had spent a great deal of time studying the specific subject.
For what it's worth, the degree to which I take a post (as opposed to a poster) seriously depends on the arguments and evidence presented to make the point. It's only when the evidence offered is the personal experience or opinion of the poster that the poster's qualifications become relevant.
To bring this discussion back to the BLM LEO's actions, the posts on this thread by those with significant LEO experience about what actions and reactions an LEO is capable of doing mean more to me than speculation by non-LEO's about what any LOE should or should be able to do.
John
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 24, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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I'm a Ph.D. scientist and I firmly deny anthropogenic climate change. By the way Edward Teller, "Father of the H-Bomb" also denies anthropogenic climate change.
Hate to tell you this, but Teller's dead, I doubt he denies much of anything these days!
(Maybe you just made a typo a meant to write "denied," but it's an important distinction in any event: what a particular scientist thought at one time may have changed 10 years later.)
JohnE--what cops think about a shooting may mean something different from what non-cops think, but it doesn't mean that cops are more "right."
Cops have a bias to minimize personal risk, even if that minimization causes a lot of collateral damage.
The judgment of society as-a-whole as to when lethal force is justified may not equal the judgment of cops.
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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Feb 24, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
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Philo,
this video you posted is even worse than the one that started the thread.
What do we have? We have police contacting, detaining, and arresting a citizen. We have another citizen on the street filming.
What do we not have?
We don't have any of the background information necessary to understand what we're seeing. Does she have a warrant? Is she a suspect? Does she match a description of a subject police are to contact? Was the police contact generated by a citizen complaint? What was the exchange between her and the cop?
We also do not have an uncut document that shows the contact, exchange, detainment, statement of charges and subsequent arrest of the woman. we cannot see how much of the contact was consensual. Instead we have a choppy, incomplete video, punctuated by still photos.
There is simply not enough information for an outside observer to make any judgement based on what's provided here.
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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Feb 24, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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Furthermore, I want to address some of your statements. I am not attacking you. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I want to make a point. This thread is filled with broad-brush statements and comments made based on popular culture imagery. Examples:
"One less jogging jaywalker. Whew aren't we now safer?"
We have no idea why this woman was contacted. Perhaps police were looking for a woman who matched that description for any number of reasons. She may have shoplifted, left a domestic violence scene, or any of a million other reasons to warrant police contact. The fact that she was crossing a street may be of no signifigance. She had to be somewhere, right?
"Mam are you carrying any concealed weapons that could be conceived as a threat to myself or officer Dunkin' Donuts here?" "Don't you get sassy with me little missy".
This is a fantasy exchange that likely didn't happen. Many cops are avid shooters and 2nd Amendment supporters. Cops have gone so far as to form groups such as Oath Keepers, declaring their allegiance to the US Constitution, and vowing not to support local legislation that flies in the face of that document. The inclusion of donuts, demeaning sexist language, implied paranoia, is also conjecture at best and a parade of pop culture images. The inclusion of these sentences has no relevance to the video that you posted.
"Does her screams for attention constitute non-compliance?"
Of course they do not. Nor do they mean the cops are doing anything outside the law or outside of what the tax payers hired them to do. Hysterics and histrionics do not equate to guilt or innocence.
"Does non-compliance constitute resisting arrest?"
You should look up the statutes for this locality to get your answer.
This is the closest I could find:
-Tex PE Code Ann 38.03 (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally prevents or obstructs a person he knows is a peace officer or a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction from effecting an arrest, search, or transportation of the actor or another by using force against the peace officer or another.-
"Does resisting arrest justify excessive use of force?"
Situationally dependent. Do you see excessive force in the video? I didn't. The presence of a lot of cops is irrelevant.
"Does non-compliance in the face of excessive use of force justify lethal reponse?"
They drove a living breathing screaming woman away in a car. Are you still talking about the video you posted?
"Does a citizenship that can turn a lame view toward excesses of power run the risk of bumbling Itself into a Police State?"
So based on the above video, we are now at a Police State level?
Don't get me wrong. Your concerns are valid. But please don't water down real concerns by posting a video like this and using it a springboard to compare modern American policing efforts to a uniform Gestapo-esque plot.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 24, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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Hate to tell you this, but Teller's dead, I doubt he denies much of anything these days!
Blahblah
Teller denies he's dead. Blames it on alien Communists that could have been deterred by a proper deployment of Star Wars technology.
Seriously, Teller, though brillant, was a pompous, facist dickhead, who was one of the models for Dr. Strangelove, and was largely responsible for getting Oppenheimer blacklisted. And as far as I know, not an expert on atmospheric science, except perhaps as to how it related to upper atomsphere thermonuclear testing.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 24, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
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LOL.
I knew very little about Teller other than I thought it was surprising that someone with a high-ranking position in WWII could still be alive and commenting on things of public interest (and of course, he's not).
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Feb 24, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
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No kidding. WWII era folks I know who are still kicking are mostly commenting about kids, and how they should depart their lawn, post haste. And pull up yer pants!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 24, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
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Speelyei I'm cool with your comments. Mine were tongue in cheek.
For the record the back story on this video is well known.
Austin is trying new initiatives to increase pedestrian safety.
It's their new big deal. This girl was jogging and had the temerity to jaywalk past the cops. The apprehended her and arrested her for not producing identification.
Carry on.
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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Feb 24, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
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Good, I'm glad you didn't misinterpret me.
I'll look up some background on the video....
Ok, read a couple articles. Huh.
Here's my take... The law is written in black and white, yet few people ever take time to familiarize themselves with the laws that effect them daily. Instead most people operate on a sort of colloquial understanding of the law and conventionally expected behavior. Also most law abiding citizens have very limited or minimal contact with cops and their knowledge base is built off TV, movies, and anecdotal experience.
In Arizona you are required by law to identify yourself truthfully to an officer if legally detained. Even though "nobody ever gets a ticket for jaywalking", if it's illegal in your community and you do it, you have given cops all the reason they need to legally and justifiably contact and detain you. I'll bet that's what happened here. Then she apparently misunderstood her rights and obligations or was simply hoping she could buffalo the officer. Obviously, it didn't go well for her.
Once I was riding with my buddy ( in our teens) and he got a speeding ticket. In retrospect the cop was pretty cool about the whole thing and the ticket was warranted. But we talked the whole way home about what an as#@&%e he was and all the reasons the ticket was bullsh#t. My buddy went to court to contest it. Well, to make a long story short, the ticket was upheld and I learned a valuable lesson, watching my buddy make a fool of himself in front of the judge.
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