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jstan
climber
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Dec 31, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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And why is it fair to suck us all dry for our own government's gross mismanagement?
Governmental debt should be paid by the populations who benefitted. In a government managed appropriately that population is the citizenry.
While this seems simple and implementable, who should pay for the Viet Nam War? The Iraq War?
And who decides?
A more specific question. Who should pay for the $21,000,000,000 it cost to save General Motors? Many people benefitted. Including a few individuals enjoying executive jets and bonuses rewarding them for their astute management. And how should they pay?
A modest proposal. When a corporation fails or even has their lobbyists involved in promoting a failing project, the corporation should lose some of its freedom. The freedom to make failing decisions. The simple prospect that freedom might be lost could entirely change corporate willingness to undertake clearly risky ventures.
Instead of selling its GM stock at a loss the US should have retained the stock and taken a position on GM's board. If nothing else this would have caused that board to cease being a creature existing solely at the pleasure of the CEO. A very desirable result.
When, in the view of the GM's National Board Member, the company has been able to reform its management personnel and processes, and the stock has regained its value, the US might liquidate its position.
Edit:
Wes: I was addressing Governmental Debt specifically. The environmental debt you discuss is just one part of the more general practice called "externalization". Getting someone else to pay for something that benefits you. Like not including the cost of radioactive waste management in the cost of nuclear power. Disposal is a term not applicable here. The waste will have to managed and maintained into the indefinite future. The carbon cycle is perhaps an even more important example.
(The term "disposal" might be used if we send our waste into intergalactic space. I rule out depositing them into the sun because of the, very remote, possibility of unintended consequences. The cost of this disposal would have to include remediation costs in the event of a launch failure.)
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 31, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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Governmental debt should be paid by the populations who benefitted.
Impossible. Since the industrial revolution (and the democratic revolution of the 18th and 19th century) western civilizations have extracted a debt from the natural world that cannot be repaid in many many lifetimes and encouraged the rest of the world to "progress" with us. For the last 300 years most of the human population has been racking up environmental debt that simply cannot be repaid. The monetary debt is an illusion designed to hide the truth.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Dec 31, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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America the Ignorant...on topic for this forum
(In more ways than one . . . .)
If only intelligence only mattered. What problems have been once-and-for-all solved by the legions of so-called "intelligent people?"
People of intelligence should see that:
(i) samsara / "the human condition" can't be fixed (i.e., the world of limited resources, people's attachments / aversions, the dysfunctional over-riding need for achievement, rampant self-aggrandizement . . . )
(ii) intelligence has not been found to be highly correlated to happiness or peace / serenity--but in fact the opposite*
(iii) intelligence causes just as many problems as it intends to fix (e.g., "unintended consequences" that have resulted in almost every large-scale social "solution")
(iv) the so-called smarts that come from traditional educational programs (e.g., college) seem most associated with (and help to create) bourgeoise materialism.
*Burroughs & Rindfleich, "Materialism and Well-Being: A conflicting values perspective", Journal of Consumer Research, Vol 29, December 2002. (A meta-study of 200+ empirical studies)
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 31, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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intelligence has not been found to be highly correlated to happiness or peace / serenity--but in fact the opposite*
MikeL, I think you may have misread the Boroughs & Rindfleisch paper? I just flew through it... might have missed it... but it appears to be about material possessions and I don't think it mentions intelligence at all.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
it's full of holes
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Dec 31, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
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"If we had more people like William Burroughs this country wouldn't be such a f*#ked pansy ass mess of a hell hole teetering on the edge of a take over by limp dick Liberal minded morons and or Dickless religious zealots..."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 31, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Can I respectfully take the opposite stance, MikeL?
If it was not for "intelligence", we would still be living in the trees
If it was not for intelligence we would not be living in climate controlled houses and driving reliable cars
we would not be able have our knees replaced, or be able to live past around 45
we would still be sawing off limbs without anesthesia and dying fast of heart attacks
I'll take intelligence for 10 Alex
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 31, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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Ed wrote, I assume flippantly,
will evolution make me money?
no.
who cares about it?
Paleontology is a big part of petroleum geology of some areas, particularly the gulf of mexico. So yeah...it helps make money. Without it, it is hard to tell what age of rocks you are in.
This isn't so difficult on the onshore Pennsylvanian or Cretaceous basins. Those basins are like a layer cake and the correlations are easier.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 31, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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You don't have to believe in evolution or understand how it works to put the fossils in the right order. I went to school with an amazing mineralogist who had damn near every mineral formula you could imagine memorize, knew loads about mineral assemblages, and remembered the layout of buildings based on Miller indices... he still insisted the Earth was 6,000 years old, evolution was designed by god to test his faith, and all that stuff he knew about mineralogy was some kind of elaborate code from god.
Again, that paradigm is ENTIRELY unsustainable... at least until they reinterpret/rewrite their holy books (AGAIN) to include renunciation of material possessions, respect for life, and good will towards all mankind...
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 31, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
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Can I respectfully take the opposite stance, MikeL?
If it was not for "intelligence", we would still be living in the trees
If it was not for intelligence we would not be living in climate controlled houses and driving reliable cars
we would not be able have our knees replaced, or be able to live past around 45
we would still be sawing off limbs without anesthesia and dying fast of heart attacks
I'll take intelligence for 10 Alex
None of those things guarantee survival of our species. Plus, living in trees and not living to be old and crabby might be a good thing. Intelligence just makes us think that we are better than everything else, but are we? Are we better off being smart or will it be our downfall?
Dinosaurs were big. It was their downfall but I'm sure that they enjoyed ruling the world. They dominated much longer than we have.
Dave
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 31, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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Base, Happy New Year!
, it is hard to tell what age of rocks you are in.
Hey Base didn't the Planet and all its elements arrive in this solar system
all at once? I mean is not the "dirt" of the world all the same age?
Maybe if you would describe to me in a 1000 words or less how you can tell
when a pile of dirt formed into a rock? Or did the Earth start out as all rock and erode into dirt?
And whats the theory of this "layer cake" way of predicting how old rock is? Does it go, the deeper it is the older it is?
Also, do you have any oppinion about all the continents once being joined
together?
Jus Ask'in For Some Educate'in
BB
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 31, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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Perhaps not appreciated, is that in every other aspect of the natural world, what defines the relative order of species, are physical attributes.
Human progenitors were NOT the top of the food chain. Intelligence changed that, at least on our planet.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 31, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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When the rest of the world talks about "that country" with all of the religious fanatics and psychos, the're not talking about Iran or Afganistan or Pakistan.
They're talking about the United States of America.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Dec 31, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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Ed: Robert Hutchings Goddard.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 31, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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yes, some dinos were big, and our best guess is a big ass asteroid was their undoing
yes they were the top of earth's food chain for millions of years
and yes our human existence on this earth may not last anywhere near as long as theirs
they got this new thing called carbon dating that does indeed tell us how old stuff is
we can send an unmanned spacecraft traveling for months to Mars, land itself, take probes and insure it is operative for years doing scientific research, pretty good!
although we cannot "yet" create molecular life, but we are have a good idea of how life on our planet came into being and evolved to our present state
we no longer believe the earth is flat, we can split atoms, and we for sure know that the Grand Canyon and Half Dome are a hell of lot older than 6000 years
we can't raise the dead with incantations, but we can cure many diseases
our old and poor don't have to suffer in poverty and starvation anymore, we know how to mitigate human misery through our "intelligence"
Intelligence for 20 Alex
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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and our best guess is a big ass asteroid was their undoing
Just see the scientific process.
One big guess.
Just guess and pass it on as so called intelligent knowledge which all the fools lap up like stupid dogs ......
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Dec 31, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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I'll toss in a couple more scientists working before WWII:
Warren Lee McCabe
Ernest Thiele
John H. Perry
Nice essay, Ed.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 31, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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One big guess.
Albeit a much more accurate guess than religion.....
Science disproves itself all the time and moves along to the next theory, and the most important part is that it's ok with that.
Religion depends on the same fairy tales FOREVER!
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 31, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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I guess my question is, do future generations want to be intelligent?
Look at the people around you. most are living day to day. as long as they
are doing their job, getting paid, and are happy. do you think they care if they're intelligent?
Look at the younger kids also. they are not seeing what's going on around them. they only see what's on a screen six inches in front of them.
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