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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 27, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
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yawn. Gasoline wrote:
What three wars related to the issue of OIL are you referring to Ken M?
Ken M wrote:
Actually, there is no evidence that supports your theory of a [Iraq] war of plunder. I don't think it was done for that reason, but for ideology, and "spreading democracy".
Ken M replied:
Uhhhhh......where's the oil? I mean, oil is pretty hard to hide, particularly in large quantities.
You have a theory, sure, but where is your EVIDENCE. let's see your citations.
I'm going to leave my victim state to address this drivel. I take for granted that most of the posters here understand detail and nuance. I stand corrected.
I do think that we have interest in ALL countries in the middle east. I do NOT believe that the issue is contemplation of plundering their oil. For example, we intervened in Libya, not because we hoped to plunder their oil (we got none of it), but because the chaos there would affect the stability of oil. (I also think there were humanitarian issues, and that Khadafi was a killer of Americans) But our focus on the country had a lot to do with oil.
Gas's contention is that Iraq was a simple war of conquest for the purpose of plundering oil, and was conceived of, just for that reason. I reject that theory. And I still don't see any Iraqi oil.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 27, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
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Still at it?
So how many tree huggers enjoy a nice sup of that $40/oz balsamic vinegar laced with lead?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 27, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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"Don't burn down the shithouse before the indoor plumbing is installed and working"
My Great-Grandfather said that.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 27, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
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Up here, when you buy an LED bulb, or indeed almost anything with significant environmental impact and/or that's hard to recycle, there's a return handling fee included. Batteries, tires, appliances, and on and on. You pay the fee on buying the product, and it's used to keep open a network of places you can return the stuff to, or have it returned to.
It's sort of an elaboration on our well-established bottle/can return and recycle program, the difference being that with bottles and cans, the places that sell them must take them back, whereas for enviro stuff, it goes to a more central place.
IIRC, you can put some of the stuff out with your blue box recycling, but nothing that might perturb the dainty garbagemen.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 27, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
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Up here, when you buy an LED bulb, or indeed almost anything with significant environmental impact and/or that's hard to recycle, there's a return handling fee included. Batteries, tires, appliances, and on and on. You pay the fee on buying the product, and it's used to keep open a network of places you can return the stuff to, or have it returned to.
It's sort of an elaboration on our well-established bottle/can return and recycle program, the difference being that with bottles and cans, the places that seel them must take them back, whereas for enviro stuff, it goes to a more central place.
IIRC, you can put some of the stuff out with your blue box recycling, but nothing that might perturb the dainty garbagemen.
^^^^^^^^^^ An advanced civilization....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 27, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
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Hmmm, a bunch don't care for the patriotism issue.
My reasoning is as follows: Having the US dependent upon foreign oil is not in our interest. Anyone disagree with that (other than any other arab leaders reading this)?
The various things that we, as a country, can do....is quite limited, and generally takes a LOT of time to happen. MANY of those things have serious risks involved.
So what do we, as citizens, have the power to change? Not a lot!Conservation, of course. Drive high fuel economy cars, when we can afford them.
And now, we have a new technology that can make a difference, AND benefits us individually.
And we fight it. I guess some people prefer paying money to Arab dictatorships, rather than to America. I don't get it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 27, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
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Russ has started an interesting thread, but it seems to be full of passionate response, and lacking in substance.
A comparison of different lighting options can be found at the DOE web site:
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/lighting_daylighting/index.cfm/mytopic=12030
We find in the comparison chart that LEDs have a higher light output per electric power consumed, a factor of 2 to 3 better than incandescent bulbs. The lifetime is 10 to 20 times longer than the incandescent bulb. Current technologies seem produce high color temperatures which shift the perceived "white point" and make us cranky (apparently) that colors under LEDs don't look as good. The Sun, however has a color temp of 5700 K, which if we made a light which matched it we'd be complaining...
Why does it matter?
In 2010, 1.45 trillion kilowatthours was used by the residential sector, 39% of electric energy end use. The efficiency of generating that energy is roughly 39%, an additional 7% is lost in transmission and distribution, so by the time the electricity comes to your house, we're down to about 32% efficiency, or for every killowatthour you use, 3 times that energy has to be converted.
Residential energy use is 30.7% space heating, 12.3% space cooling, 12.2% water heating and 11% lighting... 7.5% refrigeration, 7.4% electronics, 4.8% we clean, 4.5% cooking. However, lighting in residences can be as much as 50% of the total electric energy use.
You can see it in my home's electric energy use, which is well modeled by the number of daylight hours on top of a constant average use.
The additional hours of light decrease our energy usage, but there are still times we have the lights on 800 W throughout the house... for at least 3 hours a day on top of the seasonal variation, 2.4 kWhr/day, with an additional 5.3 kWhr/day on the longest day, or about an average of 5.05 kwHr/day, roughly 35% of our total electrical usage.
We could realize a savings of roughly 30% in our electricity bill by going to all LED lighting, and save on bulb replacement... it is not insignificant.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Nov 27, 2011 - 10:42pm PT
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haven't read all this but back in about 2003 my grandpa helped me with an experiment involving LEDs. I found a source for purchasing them small-scale and he helped me rig an old bike to a generator from like a 1947 Ford which was converted for storage into deep cycle batteries. From that we concocted all kinds of interesting LED contraptions that I strung up and wired throughout my small apartment. I combined them them RV light fixtures that also used DC power. The idea was to power as much stuff in my apartment using 30 minutes of exercise an evening. An LED uses such a minimal amount of energy, I though it an obvious choice for my lighting solutions. While not perfect, it was an interesting experiment.
LEDs, while currently imperfect, use such a ridiculously low amount of energy, to not be looking towards them would be foolish.
edited to add: Nice post Ed
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 27, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
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Ed: those look exactly like your climate change plots.
I'm starting to not believe you....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 27, 2011 - 10:59pm PT
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You can tune the new generation ones to any color you want.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 27, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
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We could realize a savings of roughly 30% in our electricity bill by going to all LED lighting, and save on bulb replacement... it is not insignificant.
Ed,
Great post. TFPU.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 27, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
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I'm somewhat surprised to see Russ caught up in this latest outrage and emasculation of the great white American male. How Rove keeps these hits coming is beyond me, but you have to concede he is an enduring and prolific genius.
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 27, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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and to think he got sucked in simply because he wanted a $1.89 light bulb so he could see and replace the bar tack needle...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 27, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
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Didn't someone (probably GE or something) do a study of energy use in homes which used only LEDs, which found that they use more of other forms of energy, to maintain the temperature? Essentially, the homes were in part being heated by heat given off by the incandescents, so when they switched to LEDs, they turned up the heat.
Of course, the converse may apply in buildings with air conditioning.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Nov 27, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
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I am amazed at how many outdoorspeople have evolved a lifestyle that is largely based on consuming like crazy. Most climbers or boaters or skiers, you name it and I will wager they spend more time driving than they spend actually doing their sport.
I know it sounds corny, but I try to judge myself and my activities by thinking about how John Muir would have judged me. For instance, I like walking and bike riding the best because I can do them starting from my house. I don't have to drive at all and I find great personal satisfaction in that.
I love climbing and I grew up in easy walking distance of climbing spots. When I moved to Albuquerque to attend college I began driving between 25 and 40 miles almost every day to boulder and 80 miles on one or sometimes both weekend days to do roped climbs in the upper Sandias (our local mtn. range). I did this for a couple of decades straight. Somewhere in there I mixed in a decade or so of boating. This involved roughly 8 to 12 hours of driving depending on the shuttling involved.
So I am not judging others more harshly than I judge myself. Growing up in the Southwest where everything is a long way from everything I can relate to driving long distances, but as I've gotten older I feel guiltier about doing it. It directly supports terrorism and Bushco and his ilk. It is a necessity at times but those times should be well considered.
How did we get from being environmentalists to being whining crybabies, whining up a storm about being made to use something that has incredible environmental impact. How did we go from clean climbing to demanding to be able to waste more?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 27, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
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http://www.ecoseed.org/green-transportation-blog/fuel-cell-vehicles/article/70-fuel-cell-vehicles/6040-honda-reveals-new-solar-hydrogen-charger-
Honda reveals new solar hydrogen charger
Category: Fuel Cell Vehicles Hits (1092)
Friday, January 29, 2010
Designed to fit in a garage, the charger can refuel a fuel cell electric vehicle eight hours overnight with around 0.5
kilograms of hydrogen. Photo from Businesswire.
Fuel cell electric vehicles can now use Honda’s solar hydrogen charging station prototype to recharge for the daily commute, approximately 10,000 miles per year.
Designed to fit in a garage, the charger can refuel a fuel cell electric vehicle eight hours overnight with around 0.5 kilograms of hydrogen.
Conventional solar hydrogen chargers required both an electrolyzer, a device that gathers hydrogen molecules from water, and a separate compressor unit to create high pressure hydrogen. The compressor is said to be the most expensive component in the device and also reduces system efficiency.
For its new charging station, Honda re-engineered the electrolyzer to eliminate the compressor and drive down costs and size while improving system efficiency by more than 25 percent.
Users can refill their vehicle overnight using less expensive off-peak electrical power, eliminating the need for hydrogen storage. During daytime peak power times, the smart grid-compatible charging station can export the electricity produced from its 6-kilowatt solar panels to the grid.
The array utilizes thin-film solar cells produced by Honda Soltec Company, a subsidiary of Honda.
In addition, the new charging station complements Honda’s FCX Clarity electric vehicles. With fast public charging stations for longer trips and the prototype’s nighttime slow charging for homes, the fuel cell vehicle will be more flexible on the road.
The solar hydrogen station is housed at Honda R&D Americas Inc. in Los Angeles.
Drive on.
I refuse to be one of these the end is near fearful fools since the answers are out there if we are brave enough to change for the better.
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