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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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There was a theory/belief about police officers not living long after retirement. Its possible that theory was started to justify high pensions. If they don't live that long, then whats to worry if we pay them a lot. ..
But now there are studies coming out that say that police officers live as long as everyone else.
oh.. and Texas is going broke. 27 billion dollars shortfall.
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apogee
climber
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Just out of curiosity, Dave...do you have any very close friends or family who have worked in law enforcement?
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Knave
Trad climber
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Dave,
The shorter life span for public safety workers, although lengthening beyond the statistics gathered from the generations past (read 50's-the 70's) is still 10 years less than the mean at this point due to stress, trauma and exposure to chemicals, traffic accidents, felons, long hours on duty. on and on etc.... When sh#t hits the fan you call us to go into the phucked up mess and un-phuck it.
I put in an average of 60 hours a week..and have a mandatory 90 min a day workout when on duty and eat clean food and party less than the average office worker. I don't eat donuts and I consider my profession honorable to the point of chivalry. For my salary and pension I have made a 27 year commitment to lay down my life if need be to save that of another and I've put my money where my mouth is on more than a few occasions and I don't want a pat on the back, I want a pension That allows me to limp off into the sunset.
You should be demanding the same. A freakin living wage, health care, education for your children, funding for the arts and sciences. I believe that we as a society have the wherewithal to to fund this considering the lopsided concentration of wealth. Considering that we have plenty of food, abundant energy sources, fertile minds, arable land, kind hearts.
If my pension is the cause of the woes in this state then take it away and send it to those more deserving like mortgage bankers and the like!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't do it for the money..stick the budget up your arse...I'm going climbing when you take this godforsaken job away anyhoo!!!!!!!!!!!
High and 'effen mighty I know, but this nerve has been struck for years and I'm beginning to tire. When I stared we all had side jobs so you could make ends meet, we organized and fought and became politically active and garnered a living wage with a pension.
We all deserve this in this republic; the unemployed and the under employed alike. A certain brand of socialism becomes palatable to achieve this. To support the arts, health care, education, vibrant infrastructure.
Corporatism has no heart to fund this to the degree necessary to facilitate cultural evolution. Not alone anyway. To me, socialist democracies facilitate the ideal best. A melding of both ideals, freedom to excel in business but a minimum of inalienable rights like food, air drinking water, education and freedom to go beyond this basic modicum if your spirit dictates.
My shorter life span, statistically anyhow, is precisely why cops and firefighter unions have negotiated for a shortened work span obligations. I signed up 20 years ago knowing this and made the trade offs that come with the decision of working publicly in a higher risk/mercenary occupation. It pays well but by the time you hit 50 or 55 your done with stress and ready for retirement and a, 10 year sooner than the average bear, dirt nap.
The penultimate rant of a Lurker.
Peace, Tim
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thanks. I have a number of friends who are firefighters, including one who died a few years ago from throat cancer, in his 60s.
Are there any studies that show that firefighters, police, EMTs and others in similar occupations in the US live shorter or unhealthier lives, allowing for their often being in better than average physical condition at the time they start work in their 20s? I googled around under things like "police united states life expectancy", but couldn't find anything. There must be some objective information about this somewhere.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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MH..
this says that Calpers did a study. Calpers runs the public service employees retirement program.
http://davisvanguard.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2977:calpers-debunks-myth-of-shorter-life-expectancy-for-safety-employees&Itemid=79
As near as I can tell, they are saying the averages are the same for life expectancy.
I have read sites that say police officers have a higher rate of suicide. 17 per 100,000 versus the american average of 11 per 100,000. But perhaps that is offset by what you point out, police officers tend to start out as healthier individuals.
So far this is all that I could find.
Edit: The way I interpret the Calpers study is that if a public safety officer survives to retire, then they can expect to live on average as long as everyone else. Its getting to retirement where the numbers go against them. Though logging still has the highest work related death rate.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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This study discusses "public safety employees." But they fail to define what they mean by that. Do they mean security guards? Desk workers in law enforcement agencies? Individuals working at the DMV?
For every sworn LEO in a public agency, there are three working for private agencies. The work between the two groups can differ dramatically. A study that aggregates the two types of workers would not carry much weight to me.
Don't assume they mean what you think they mean. Not saying the study is right or wrong, just saying I don't see enough info there to make that assessment.
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Tim and Jody, thank you for having the words that I could not find. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the shift work. At my department you have the choice of working 0600 to 1800 or 1800 to 0600. Night shift is horrible on the body.
And another thought is when you call 911 because some monstrous parolee is breaking into your house, raping your daughter, etc. Do you want a 50 year old with a bad back, bad knees, and bad shoulders to come to your rescue or do you want the 20 something stud to help?
Everyone I know with 10 plus years on the jobs is suffering from some sort of physical ailment.
And as for lifetime medical- tell me what department has it so I can go there. When I retire in 8-12 years I will be paying over $1,000.00 a month until I can go on Medicare at 65.
Eric
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apogee
climber
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Chances are, that anytime you see a post from someone who rabidly comes down against one gov't program/service or another, they will be someone who has virtually no direct experience with that program.
Isn't that the true definition of talking out of one's arse?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Hm, I do get a small non LEO CALPERS benefit so I do have experience with it.
CALPERS benefits for sworn (POST Certified) and fire employees are quite a bit more generous than for everyone else except for a few agencies where everyone else rode the same contract negotiation.
Easy to differentiate in the study Crimper.
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squishy
Mountain climber
Sac town
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california is broke because you all keep buying crapping gear from china..
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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California would still be broke because the regulatory climate has driven all the manufacturing out.
Another problem with the retirement system are some of the sweetheart deals for calculating service time.
for example;
An 18yo joins the Army as an MP then after completing his enlistment goes to the LA Co Sheriffs dept. His retirement service calculation will start from his enlistment date at 18. It would not however count if he drove a tank.
So he gets to retire at 48 with a full 30 year pension.
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apogee
climber
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Oooo, look...another egregious example! How innovative of you, TGT.
Funny how all the egregious examples you Repugs keep throwing up are precisely aligned with your ideologic views.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Funny how all the egregious examples you Repugs keep throwing up are precisely aligned with your ideologic views
That's called evidence supporting your position, app ;)
John
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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It's a common example.
My recently deceased father did it. Retired with a full pension at 55, lived to 86.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Good points Jody..And the same can be said for any other public employee that receives a pension.. Just because Rush Limbaugh says so , working at a government job ain't no piece of cake..
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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You cannot deny pensions are one of many issues facing states.
It's going to be a problem for all of us at the state level, but it's not the cause of the current budget crisis. even the lowenstein article you link uses the future tense.
if you arrive at a climbing accident scene, the the climber, a deidcated cigarette smoker with emphysema, is about to bleed out, you don't waste time going through his pack so you can throw away his cigs.
the longterm pension issue is a national issue-- but it isn't why california is broke. the piece in the sac bee that jody linked basically sums up what most of the studies have found.
jody's other claim, that chp obligations don't have anything to do with the general fund, is a bit less helpful. hwy revenues are taxes and fees (including "fines") that could be used for any number of expenditures. that we use them on chp labor costs is a politcal decision. not necessarily a bad decision, but it's not an eternal feature of the natural landscape.
chp median salaries (not "averages, salamanizer-- that's why the difference") are pegged to the compensation packages of other comps, specifically the sfpd, lapd, opd, and lacos.
we could of course have a cheaper chp if we just stuck a bunch of parking lot rent-a-cops in cruisers and paid them to ride around with shotguns. personally, i'd not be crazy about that idea. sounds like some folks here are.
those of you worried about chp pay might note, however, that the chp were the one sector of state employees that didn't take a mandatory 10% paycut in '09. neither the chp nor the prison guards are likely to bear the brunt of future budget cuts-- they are too politically potent. any pol (outside of a left-wing dem in a very safe, loeft-of-center blue district) who pushed hard to cut chp, police, or ccpoa pay scales would face the wrath of voters driven to tears by all the "soft-on-crime" ads that would instantly hit the airwaves.
and yes, cali appears to have the best paid prison guards in the country. good luck cutting those dollars. three strikes and mandatory sentencesw put the ccpoa in the driver's seat.
not that it really matters-- imagine you were king, didn't have to face re-election or election, and could just magically reduce chp and prison guard compensation to some vaguely realistic number-- say 3/4 of what it is now. run the numbers in the budget simulator-- you get virtually nothing. if we closed every prison in california, had each inmate and prison guard spontaneously combust, we wouldn't close the current projected deficit.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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re general comparisons of public sector compensation. a number of recent studies have generally arrived at similar conclusions: when adjusted for comps and other factors, public sector employees tend to earn slightly less or perhaps the same (once pensions/healthcare are included) as private sector comps.
see, for instance, the heywood and bender (one of the most frequently cited):
http://www.slge.org/vertical/Sites/%7bA260E1DF-5AEE-459D-84C4-876EFE1E4032%7d/uploads/%7b03E820E8-F0F9-472F-98E2-F0AE1166D116%7d.PDF
a lot of money has been spent at right-wing think tanks attempting to produce credible research that shows distorted compensation levels in public employee esector, but there just isn't much. that's why you are now starting to hear folks say things like," we shouldn't waste time comparing public and private sector jobs." instead, folks now frequently say things like, "public sector employees don't seem to quit as often as private sector employees" or "since folks apply for public sector jobs, we should obviously lower the wages until they quit applying" (j el made a version of this argument earlier in this thread). but that's more nearly a maoist than a monetarist argument.
in any event, when comparing private and public sector, straight generic comps aren't that helpful. much more useful to comp specific job classifications. in higher ed, for instance, the highest salaries go to those who are in fact the closest to the private sector and who can and often do easily leave universities for private sector: econ, business schools, med schools, law school, applied sciences, certain other sciences, and of course, the upper-management who have rolodexes and patents that can bring in donations, grants, and contracts.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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at mp:
ive been on the road so didnt see the fabulous news that you were able to use the budget simulator to solve our fiscal problems! that's fantastic. doubtless your inbox is crashing with all the job offers from consulting firms, inquiries from the nobel folks, and congratulations from all of the dolts in serious policy circles who have obviously been wasting their professional lives for the last thirty years.
i do notice, though, that you've been coy about posting your results. don't hide your light under a bushel.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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sin e i was asked to offer some sources, and i don't doubt that folks have little interest in trolling thru old threads to find the various places in which ive linked some of these before, here are some quick ways to get up to speed on the current state of research in the topics that matter.
the single-best study of prop 13 remains citrin and sears, tax revolt.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mmX_e_4dVnsC&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=citrin+tax+revolt&source=bl&ots=lc_9d8LmCf&sig=lBLNqkQPrSAenjqQnAmutM-m_Wk&hl=en&ei=DDllTvzzI8-r8QOe1-mxCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
citrin recently organzied a conference with some of the top folks on prop 13. some of the papers are available in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/After-Tax-Revolt-Californias-Proposition/dp/087772430X
bruce cain's new journal, one of the few available online w/o sub, did a special issue on the budget crisis. his editor's intro is a good quick summary;
http://www.bepress.com/cjpp/vol2/iss3/
of the various journalistic accounts, peter schrag, paradise lost, is probably the best. peter is a democrat, so lots of folks here won't want to read him. too bad. longtime bee investigative journalist and he knows as much about education finance, in particular, as anyone else reporting. not that anyone is left after the purges.
kurt schuparra and matt dallek's competing accounts of the reagan gubernatorial revolution are the best intro to cali politics in the run up to prop 13. we don't have a good study yet by a historian, although folks are working on it. one of the problems is that the jerry brown papers were (unbelievably) closed for 50 years. but they were just recently opened, and i know someone who is currently working on serrano and school finance in california. but that won't be out for awhile.
if you want more current stuff and have an institutional sub, just run a jstor search. most of the stuff available free online is agit-prop. as is too often true, you get what you pay for.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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jody, yes, i know the proximate reason for the chp exempt. but i don't think it would've have worked out the same way if, for example, the nurses had been in a similar situation.
leo and cj unions have more political leverage in california (and other places), than do any of the other public sector folks. just look what happened in wisconsin. cops and prison guards were specifically exempted because the gop didn't want gop primaries degenerating into "soft on crime" campaign challenges to incumbents.
it'll be the same thing here.
you folks will eventually take a hit, too-- but you'll be last in line.
grim days.
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