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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Hanging on a cam is 'sport climbing'!
Yeah, exactly dogging from cam to cam is sport climbing on gear and sprad. As I said, a bummer John's no longer with us as he also made no bones about the heart of the distinction between the two.
The thread has drifted from ethics to personal style. Who gives a fuk about how other people climb routes??
It's no a matter of style, but rather definitely one of ethics - climb however you like, but don't tell me you did a trad ascent when you first dogged up the line in order to do it.
Geez, I'd hate to weight every piece I place. Wonder how many would actually work? Yikes!
That's another interesting part of sprad climbing - there's been a marked increase in accidents up this way from people trying to treat gear like bolts and not rechecking placements they are repeatedly resting on - with predictable results.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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I THINK YOU SHOULD GO SEE THE OFFICIALS
http://www.ifsc-climbing.org/
F-in hilarious but hard to argue with
HJ go look in the literature - climbing books, guide books, instructional books. Your definition is not consistant with the rest of the worlds.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Climbs are done either onsight or redpointed, regardless of whether they are led on gear or bolts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Your definition is not consistant with the rest of the worlds.
No doubt, and that's the whole point. [Trad] climbing as it first existed, and as Bachar and a whole lot of other people defined it is being quietly shoved under the rug of history. Cool, and I may very well be the last guy standing who doesn't think there's a definition of trad climbing which includes 'dog, dog, send, next'. I might also be the only guy around who thinks that narrow, reductive loop of experience is so far removed from what you experience on an onsight, groundup, trad FA as to be as be damn near as different as caving - yeah, sure, you're using the same gear, just doing and experiencing something very different from what trad climbing, at its prototypical roots and foundation, is all about.
Your only ally can't respond to this thread, how convenient.
He just did in the 2008 quote I posted above - equally convenient, and part of the beauty of ST.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Climbs are done either onsight or redpointed, regardless of whether they are led on gear or bolts.
Ah, but what about the lowly Pink Point?
I've been at my limit on sport climbs where if the draws were not already hung I would probably not have sent. And on a crack climb having to carry and place the gear makes a real difference.
Healy, I know a lot of young talented climbers who totally get it. They'll make a superhuman effort when the onsight is on the line. These guys climb at places like The Needles here in Cali. It's funny, because I don't really disagree with you except I think you are trying to fix something which is not really broken.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Climbs are done either onsight or redpointed, regardless of whether they are led on gear or bolts.
If by redpointing you mean hanging on the rope working, rehearsing and memorizing each move before managing to do a clean ascent - then there is no redpoint in trad climbing. If you managed the odd, rare onsight in trad, great; if not, then it just means you got it clean at some point past that.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sprad climber from the gym:
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Are you saying there can't be a redpoint if gear is involved? I think you are drawing too many distinctions. I've seen hard "trad" routes worked and then led cleanly. It seems to me that's a redpoint and/or a clean lead. I'm not sure there is a difference.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Hj thinks us "kids " are all gym climbers who know nothing of real rock ethics or style.
It's a dumb assumption that seems to be stuck in his head. I agree with most gu ethics and I strive for them, but I have rap bolted before. I know I'm going to hell.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Onsighting 5.14a is not sprad, if you spent years dogging to get strong enough to do it. Sorry Sharma.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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In the "old days," when going for an FA of a climb we were working on, we'd often carry one draw after all the draws were in place from previous attempts.
When climbing up to a bolt (upon which hung a pre-placed draw), we'd exchange the draw with one off our harness, then repeat this process until we reached the anchor and shout "RedPoint!"
I debated until exhaustion that there was a difference between Red Point and Pink Point. Young sportsters thought (knew?) I was crazy.
These days, the concept of a Pink Point is lost on sport routes.
THOUGHT EXPERIMENT: Suppose you were going for an onsight of Electric Africa (part gear, part bolts), and you found the route with preplaced draws. Could you claim an onsight if you climbed the route with the draws in place, yet placed gear as you went?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Not putting down gyms or sport climbing per se - simply expressing an opinion to counter the obvious trend blurring the distinction between what happens in those and in trad climbing. Again, from my perspective there is simply no definition of trad climbing that includes hanging from the rope to work a route. Pretty simple story really.
And why yes, being LNT freaks we did a bunch of toproping on overhangs and roofs on sandstone bluffs and hollows - also a situation where there is zero possibility of dogging; you either had to think fast or fly. But also where there was sometimes plenty of opportunities to suffer serious mangling ground / tree falls depending on the route. For that matter I could point you to a couple of TRs I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be willing to tie into.
That's also part of the reason I get the 'movement' aspect of sport climbing, but on single pitch why f*#k with the faux clipping - if it's all about the movement then just TR the damn thing. Never really made all that much sense to me as I just don't find the act of clipping all that compelling or impressive.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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If you managed the odd, rare onsight in trad, great; if not, then it just means you got it clean at some point past that.
By far the great majority of the traditional climbers I know – the under 30 ones too – onsight the climbs they do. This is because they rarely try trad climbs at their limit. This is true for me too. I almost never fall or hang on gear, except for those rare times when I got a wild hair about some testpiece. I have confession, when I did The Pirate, at Suicide. Oh the horror! First I used a top rope. Then I tried leading it but fell and hung (more than once, for shame!) Finally I did a redpoint lead. At the time I thought the whole process was a great experience, and I came away from it a better climber. Now I see that all I did was bring down the sport I love.
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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Well, from my perspective the initial dust up and primary disagreement between what are now trad climbers and what were then becoming sport climbers wasn't the bolts, it was the use of dogging as a tactic - with bolting issues entirely secondary to the argument. And for me that's still what defines the difference between the two - not the bolts, but rather the use of dogging as a tactic. I have no problem with sport climbing as such, but merely with people thinking just because they're using gear that they're trad climbing, which simply isn't the case - it's about the tactics, not the protection.
Or, to quote Bachar, who is sorely missing from this conversation, from a 2008 thread:
If I worked on it ground up for a long time, falling and lowering to the start every time, and I finally got the climb, then I might say I did a "trad" ascent. But that's just a product of my "trad" background and upbringing.
It's funny that you chose such a small section of that post (about Beth Rodden sending a 5.14+ crack in Yosemite. Here's the full Bachar quote:
Ah...pro-jected instead of project-ed. Got it. It's all clear to me now...
I'm just messin' 'round. I do find there's a bit of confusion with the use of the term "trad climbing" in reference to some of these "trad" ascents as reported in the climbing media. To me at least.
When someone top ropes a climb 50 times and leads it on "traditional" gear I think that's great and it is what it is - a rehearsed lead. If I did a route that way, I could never say I did a "trad" ascent however.
If I worked on it ground up for a long time, falling and lowering to the start every time, and I finally got the climb, then I might say I did a "trad" ascent. But that's just a product of my "trad" background and upbringing.
Nevertheless, I don't want to take anything away from Beth or others who choose this style. The routes they are doing are damn hard and point to new directions and possibilities for those climbs in the future - someday people will walk up to the base of those climbs and onsight flash them. Now that's trad.
Congrats, Beth. I can't wait to go check that crack out - standing on the ground of course!
Your argument all along has been that rehearsed climbs are somehow invalid ascents and anything that facilitates that style of climbing shouldn't exist. Bachar seems to have been saying that rehearsing a climb is not his style but that it looks that's where climbing is headed. I fail to see how his opinion supports yours. Either way, this sport is called climbing not bolting or recreational gear placing...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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The Spray Scale (draft v.1)
S1 Top roping in the gym
S2 Hang doggin in the gym
S3 Onsight in the gym
S4 Top roping outside
S5 Bouldering
S6 Hang doggin on bolts
S6+ Hang doggin on gear, but the FA was done ground up
S7 Hang doggin on gear
S7+ Hang doggin on gear, but the FA was done ground up
......
~S20 Tea bagging
~S40 Yo-yoing
<50 = Sprad
50+ = The only sh#t worth doing
~S50 Puking
~S60 Full Moon
~S70 Naked
~S80 Any climb that you get laid in the middle of
......
S100 Onsight, chalkless, shoeless, naked, night, winter, drunk, one hand tied behind the back, free solo FA
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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This it the complete relevant portion of the John's post:
When someone top ropes a climb 50 times and leads it on "traditional" gear I think that's great and it is what it is - a rehearsed lead. If I did a route that way, I could never say I did a "trad" ascent however.
If I worked on it ground up for a long time, falling and lowering to the start every time, and I finally got the climb, then I might say I did a "trad" ascent. But that's just a product of my "trad" background and upbringing.
He then goes on to state the obvious - and what was obvious to us in the mid-70s - that at a certain level of difficulty pure 'trad' methods were no longer going to get you up a line and you are never going to onsight them. At that point lines like 'The Prophet' are what they are - lines that are going to take dogging, rehearsing, tick marks, and headpointing to do free on gear. At that point it's definitely a hybrid and I say kudos to Leo and Jason for keeping it a close to trad as humanly (or inhumanly) possible.
Again, I get that there's a break where it has to go from pure trad to a hybrid, but I guess personally I'd like to think that line is somewhere north of 5.8 - but hey, that's just me.
First, my disdain for the term "trad" is almost equal to the respect I have for climbers that hold themselves to the pure standard of freeclimbing "as it first existed",...
The only thing I find more disdainful than the co-opted 'trad climbing' is 'adventure climbing' - that such an oxymoron even came to exist just about says it all.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Hj. Listen to Tool "the Grudge" from Lateralus. Let go.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Hj. Listen to Tool "the Grudge" from Lateralus. Let go.
I guess I'm evil for thinking the notion of "alternative metal" is an oxymoron as well?
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Not so much alternative but maybe "sprad metal "
300th post about a climbing topic, good work all.
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