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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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rlf: No dumb asses, because it comes down to simple f*#king respect for others.
Yes, that's the point. Prescriptive easement is a very old facet of property law. It's part of the concept of adverse possession.
If people have been crossing a certain piece of property for quite some time to access another area for, say, fishing or even climbing, an easement may have been established. The owner may have let it be well known that it was OK to cross his property. Or maybe he just ignored it. A path is established, which can be very critical.
When that property is sold, the new owner cannot just start denying people access. When he purchased the property, he purchased the easement, also. Whether or not it is a written easement.
I'm not saying that's the case at Fossil Falls.
Have you ever seen a small brass plaque on a sidewalk with wording to the effect that permission to pass is granted? That's a property owner protecting his parcel from the establishment of a prescriptive easement.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"Rlf...
All crags, regardless of size or popularity, are indeed a location special to some. Anytime an issue such as this pops up, it benefits us all within the community, to approach it as if it were any other. One that will be a brick in the foundation of a solid and respectable rapport between climber and Private Landowner alike. Working each and every Access issue out, is a win win situ for all of us. It can be used as reference to be used down the road when others may possibly arise, in order to move forward and work things out to the advantage of all parties concerned.
It is very apparent that you have never climbed in the Southeast where most crags are located on Private land. Local groups worked together with those landowners to gain a respectable rapport in order to enjoy the crags located on their land. The NC Climbers Coalition is an example for many of us here on the Westcoast to follow. Being proactive and nipping small Access issues, as this one may be to most, only builds confidence throughout the region on the part of the Private sector, when they are approached by us in order to work cohesively, in a respectable manner and finally together in order that all parties walk away as winners.
That is why."
Thank you! Well thought out, well written, and concise.
You are correct, I have not climbed on the east coast.
While I absolutely agree with the sentiment, I have a hunch that later on today I will be posting pictures of how just respectful climbers are of private lands. Property that I am also responsible for, that I have lobbied the owner to continue allowing access to, not to climb, but just a place to crash free from the NPS and the fees will be trashed.
I'm willing to bet money on it.
I'm off to take a look at the pit. My guess, I'll be very disappointed.
I haven't been there in a while. Let's see what I find. I'll post pics one way or the other. If I'm wrong, and the place has been left in pristine condition, so be it.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will happily, in public, for all to see, retract my statements.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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if so, you've sure been putting a lot of people through a lot of trouble here.
if not, i'd say mr. ivey doesn't have great knowledge about or very good control over his employees.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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the only other option is that this individual was a freelancer, enjoying himself asserting false authority in a sucker-punch situation. i've encountered such a time or two.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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No questions about it.
The man can right [sic]. And, he does have some very valid points to his arguments.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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perhaps the sheriff ought to take some interest in this.
if none of ivey's staff fits the description given by kev, the sheriff ought to be looking for the freelancer. kev and his partner(s?) ought to be able to give a good description.
if someone on ivey's staff is obviously the person involved, it becomes his word against kev's and kev's partner(s). it usually doesn't take long for the truth to come out.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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You clearly have no clue as to what you are talking about. My current property management responsibilities, in the context of THIS THREAD do not involve wally in any way. The property I speak of that I am managing is not his.
I'm off to take a look at the pit. My guess, I'll be very disappointed.
http://www.wallybarker.com/
---->
http://www.climbersranch.com/
AKA "the pit"
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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No dumb ass, this conversation never had anything to do with the pit, or my interactions with wally.
Crawl back into your hole from whence you came.
I can also say that I have every right to speak on his behalf when it comes to issues with the pit.
You on the other hand, have zero say. You lack any and all credibility. So please feel free to cower behind your nameless moniker.
You "reasons" for not posting who you are of no consequence.
If wally has any issues with me, and my position with regards to his properties, then he knows exactly how to get a hold me and discuss it.
If wally is pissed at me, he'll tell me. We will deal with it.
You on the other have zero standing in this discussion.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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rlf,
You can't even keep your story straight.
You are illiterate, indiscrete, and angry.
Do you have any other clients that you can be provoked into talking about on-line?
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Been watching from the sidelines. Interesting stuff going on. I know Kev and Rick (aka The Chief).....both great guys and both passionate at the things they do. Each has valid points but each is quick to call others out seperately. That's not COMMUNITY!! SoCal, eastside, westside....upside down! Attitudes dont' change until the examples are demonstrated.
But I don't mind throwing a stick at a mangy dog from time to time.....so run along Medusa, stick to things you know best, like boy bands, curling irons and the soiled wrong side of the bed.
:o)
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Good points. I would absolutely enjoy the opportunity to meet them face to face and have a beer and discuss these issues.
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Bschmitz
Ice climber
mountain view
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Tony,
Keving is not making this up. I was there, I was the other partner. I was the one that ony responded "have a nice mermorial day weekend" All the other facts are true. The first words weer get the f*#k off my property right now. and then....your entier recap. the creppy part was when he followed us on his four wheeler back to the upper falls real slow like. Thought he was getting ready to run us down.
I can't believe where this thread has gone. I think I am going to go back over to cascadeclimbers where people keep SPARY out of actual climbing realted threads. its a matter of respect. Thanks to everyone that actually contributed,the rest of you are....well I dont know, but the term Sprayers comes to mind.
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jfailing
Trad climber
A trailer park in the Sierras
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After reading most of this thread, I am really questioning whether or not Scott's Bluff is really worth it. The climbing in the main area at FF is great. Never had problems there. I work outside of Coso Junction and it's the closest crag to my temporary home in Olancha. I've seen other climbers there maybe two or three times in the past year and a half, and they surely weren't regulars. I'm just wondering if we could leave this alone, so this sh*tstorm can pass over and we can all enjoy climbing within the BLM boundary (which seems to have been clarified at this point).
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"Rif why not a big green bowl instead of Alcohol."
Fine with me, I just can't do that. Every time I do, I spend the next hour looking for my house. Which, of course, I never left to begin with...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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In situations such as described in the OP, it's sometimes possible to write down a licence number, ask for ID, or even take a photo. Very carefully, of course - a sufficiently agitated person, asserting what he believes to be his property rights, may not react well to the idea. But if there are issues as to who's who and what's what, it might help.
There may not be many impostors holding themselves out as landowners or their agents, just so as to chase away supposed intruders. But landowners' claims often encroach on neighbouring land, particularly if it is public land.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Anders, in this country most off road vehicles are not required to have license plates (except in certain parks), but have a state registration sticker which is harder to get the numbers of in an unobtrusive manner.
Dick or no, if he is a legitimate agent of the owner, and if signs have been repeatedly torn down then he can hardly be faulted for not rolling out the red carpet for you guys.
If it was me I'd put up stouter signs and you wouldn't have to hear a word about any firearms.
They wouldn't be concealed.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I would like to apologize to all those I have offended with my statements in this thread. As I said before, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll admit it.
I was wrong. Climbers are indeed true stewards of the land. We as a general user group clearly cherish and covet the few available resources we have at our disposal.
Granted it's only a hole in the ground, but it was free. For the most part it has been largely hassle free for the last eight years or so.
I have not been there in the last month or so. Here's the condition of The Pit in Joshua Tree CA after ONE SEASON:
Not sure who's car this is, but tomorrow it gets a notice pasted to it, and if it is still there next week, I know who it's going to belong to. The tow yard.
Lousy picture, but on the right is a nice full trash bin.
So, on Saturday, I get to coerce a friend of mine to come up, use her truck and trailer, my cash, and time and take all this sh#t to the dump.
Guess how many up standing climbing stewards of the land that will be there to help me?
None.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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things sure piped down here. much ado about nothing? nothing further to report?
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Jun 11, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
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I guess you could go on having a shitty attitude, RLF or you could organize help and cultivate stewardship. Good luck.
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Dynamic
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 10:33pm PT
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Hi Kev, that's probably the same red neck that ran my friends and I off about 2 months ago when we went to Fossil Falls. I was surprised that he rolled up on a quad to the edge of the cliff and yelled down to my buddy Jeff that he was climbing on private property and that we needed to retreat to Upper Falls, where it was BLM. If it were private, I'm not sure why that area would be so established a long time ago and why it would be in the Domelands guide and not posted. It seems to me that it is BLM and I was intending to contact them to verify there boundaries at Fossil Falls. This may be an Access Fund issue.
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