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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:56am PT
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Cool, but I would like to see WoS get Nanooked.
Lol
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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Do many of the anti-rebolt camp here drive around in rusted out old 1960''s plymouths as well?
Keep it real!
Woot!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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Dirty Dog, you almost got me right, but not quite.
I have pulled in-pitch gear that was rotten and rusty. The difference is that I have never Nanooked a pitch. I have put stainless 1/4" buttonheads in after pulling out 1/4" rusty plated rawls. I have also re-installed Zamacs when the FA team requested it. And, I have even used 5/16" and 3/8" stainless machine screws (not grade 5). I have been on El Cap exactly twice when an additional hole had to be drilled mid-pitch. I have probably added an additional belay bolt or two in the course of doing seven walls.
Nanooking is the process of doing in-pitch repairs that are overkill. A ladder of 3/8" belay bolts and hangers is not the same thing as a ladder of SS machine heads, or SS buttonheads. Power drilling past an existing rivet ladder, arbitrarily, so that it is easier to reach the placements is Nanooking. Adding protection bolts to an existing free climbing section is Nanooking. Drilling additional holes, and increasing the hole count on an existing route is Nanooking.
Super-Nanooking is the process of drilling holes and putting in a ladder of belay bolts right next to a perfectly good piton or copperhead crack, just so the route can "go clean". Ironically, the first time I heard of this in Yosemite, it wasn't done by Nanook, but by Todd Skinner. It was on the Dihedral Wall so that a thin piton pitch could be free-climbed without having to place A3 pro. Those bolts have since been removed.
In-pitch gear repair is generally good. Nanooking a pitch with belay bolts is bad. Erik "Nanook" Sloan apparently can't differentiate between the two extremes, so the general call to him is to stop, completely.
Nobody thinks that an aid pitch should be a line of time bombs. But, almost nobody thinks all of the in-pitch gear should be belay anchors.
edit:
Do many of the anti-rebolt camp here drive around in rusted out old 1960''s plymouths as well?
1989 Range Rover - aluminum body, but the back hatch is steel, and yes, it's rusty.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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If they want to be safe, they go to a Dogtown surf spot, and fist fight the locals over the right to get in the lineup to be eaten by a wayward Tiger shark.
I love some of the flowery writing on this site.
Thanks for making me laugh out loud.
fist-bump
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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If you think the NPS should be involved with this then somebody should send an official letter with evidence of the malfeasance. Otherwise, it is just hearsay. I doubt that they will investigate it themselves since I imagine they have things to do that are more important in their eyes. Gathering clear evidence might be more difficult than imagined. Before and after?
Someone suggested talking to the culprit face to face and the same would apply to the LEO in charge. See if you have a case. Simple. No wasted breath or typing flurries.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:14am PT
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It would be ironic if someone goes to the NPS with a formal comaint.
"Quit doing stuff or the park will get involved and ruin it for future climbers."
"Hey NPS, come look at what climbers are doing and please help regulate it!"
Climbers complaining about offenders have a better track record of closing places down than offenders themselves.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:16am PT
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I have to ask, reluctantly prolonging this current thread direction, a question to Erik regarding what he posted up above:
Yosemite has been held hostage by old codger attitudes that are gradually being replaced by modern climber ethics, like having well marked trails and bolted belays(sponsored climbers like Kevin Thaw and Mark Synott defied Eric Kohl in the early 2000s by bolting natural belays on his A5 routes on El Cap. Why should the easy routes be any different?), and bolts where only pitons or copperheads fit on clean bigwall routes. Climber impact in Yosemite is inevitable. Today's climbers are trying to do their best to preserve the cliff for future generations.
In particular, what is this "modern climber ethic"?
The "old codger attitudes" were mainly formed by a brilliant, if obvious, observation made back in the "Iron Age" and brought to the attention of the entire climbing community: "Even now, existing techniques and technology are so powerful that almost any climb imaginable can be realized, and the fear of the unknown reduced to rote exercise."
"Even now" refers to 1974, and while many (if not most) of those you refer to as "modern climbers" were not even born then, it doesn't seem all that long ago for an old codger like me.
You offer a justification for the many of your actions in Yosemite Valley, that of the "modern climber ethic." Yet, unlike the "old codger attitude," we have no idea what those modern ethics are, and given that the actions of any climber in Yosemite Valley affects all climbers who would climb in the Valley, it is important that the climbing community, the entire community, understand just what these "modern climber ethics" are.
As far as I know, neither you nor anyone else has described them, or described why the seemingly self evident "old codger attitude," an eloquent appeal to recognize there is more to climbing than "just climbing", no longer applies.
This debate is not a new one, but it should continue to be a debate, a discussion for all climbers. The designations of "locals" and "outsiders" is not very helpful, the authorities recognize "climbers" among all visitors, and the action of "climbers" is applied to the entire activity of climbing.
If there is a "modern climber ethic" which supersedes the "traditional ethic" rooted in the values of "...adventure and appreciation of the mountain environment itself..." it is very important to state just what it is.
We can debate the meaning of the concepts of "adventure" and what constitutes "environmental concern," we probably all have different ideas, but these meanings arise from, and derive their legitimacy and power from our collective experience, a collective that spans historic eras and broad locations.
None of us live in Yosemite Valley, most of us have no family claim to having settled in the Valley, we are all visitors and guests there. As guests we benefit from the hospitality of the citizens of the United States who welcome us to this wonderful place. But we have responsibilities as guests, too, and if climbers are perceived as taking advantage of the hospitality our welcome could be curtailed or revoked, at least in terms of our climbing traditions.
You seem to think this is "inevitable" and you seem to have "the answer." Since it affects me directly, I'd like to know more about what guides your thinking and your actions.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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Wayno, the crucial issue here is whether or not the climbing community can police itself, without the intervention of LEO. Many people are outraged at what Erik has done, and the way he has done it. There is a certain level of illegality to his actions, but unless someone films it on their iPhone, there is no proof, ergo, no case. Also, bringing in the Man would be a failure of the essential goal of climbers, which is to police their activity themselves, and not have rules be decreed from on high.
What this forum is trying to do is convince Erik to at least recognize that what he is doing is antagonistic to the climbing community, or at least those who were born before 1995 (or whatever). At this point, he at least is being more honest about what he is doing, and offering some rationale. This is a good start.
I still think he is going about his business of repairing existing routes in a hideously wrong fashion. But, at least there is some discourse.
Cool, but I would like to see WoS get Nanooked.
Ironically, that is one route where it might make sense that all the in-pitch drilled gear (BION, there really isn't that much) upgraded to 3/8" bolts. I have seen that route up close, and it is the future of free climbing, let me tell you. WOS Apron is to now, what the Glacier Point Apron was to 1960. I've seen steeper, smoother rock on New Dawn that Leo Houlding free climbed. There's even harder free stuff on Dawn Wall, so why not WOS going free?
Mark and Richard would probably give their blessing for upgrading the in-pitch bolts, if someone wanted to free climb their route. I replaced two pitches of drilled stuff, including two 3/8" ASCA bolts at each belay. There are new Zamac rivets and some bolts mid-pitch. It's kinda runout. Have at it.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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I agree Tom, but is this "discussion" we have here getting through to the culprit or pushing him further away from discourse? To me it looks like a gang-tackle that we see in football when there is a fumble. At some point all this back and forth is just that and nothing is solved. I think some that respond here could care less if the "problem" is ever addressed in a functional way. These kinds of threads seem pointless to me after a certain point. Nothing is resolved and nobody changes their cherished beliefs. They go on and on and a handful of people wait with baited breath for their next chance to post. This will go on and on and then another thread will start saying it all over and over. Sure there are many issues facing the climbing community that could be resolved if the participants really wanted to do that, but it won't happen here. Trial by Facebook.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:01am PT
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The original sin was the bullshit drilling of rivet ladders and use of copperheads, etc. in the first place. It's just the aid version of chipping holds. No matter how these routes are maintained in the future there will always be disputes because they were built on an unsound foundation.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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policing our own community sounds great in theory until that leads to violence and then the real police are involved.
the days of fist fighting in the parking lot with impunity are long gone
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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Nobody has chased me off, Couch. I've been here all along, I just don't click on non climbing threads and don't comment on much drama. I do try and contribute with stoke and passion for climbing, once in a while.
As for this topic... I consider Erik a friend, he's a neat guy with tons of great qualities. But, I don't agree with some of what I've seen in his aftermath.
Eric, it's pretty simple, really: If we wanted to have comforts on a big wall, we probably wouldn't have left the ground.
Woot! Wait... what?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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Finally: a voice of reason.
Ammon saved us from the conflict of Wings of Steel.
Perhaps now he can save us from the conflict of Nanooked Big Walls.
Blessed is the peacemaker, for he makes the peace.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 16, 2015 - 11:56am PT
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In addition to the effects of increased bolting on the routes themselves, making routes easier may not actually make people safer, due to the phenomenon of risk compensation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
In brief, as the Wikipedia entry puts it, "people typically adjust their behavior in response to the perceived level of risk."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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Kind of weird that people for whom climbing is such an important part of their lives don't really understand climbing style and ethics.
Nature presented a challenge. The FA team climbed those pitches in the best style they could. Future teams leave those pitches as close to the original ascent condition as possible, to do otherwise is unethical.
The idea that you could add bolts to a bolt ladder so everyone who is 5.7" could clip them is ridiculous and shows Erik doesn't really understand climbing ethics. Personally I like reachy bolt ladders. It's just a bolt ladder but top stepping and arcing back, or figuring out how to lean to the side while staying balanced, or making a blind placement from the top bolt, is what makes bolt ladders fun. Now Erik wants to make them so most people don't even have to reach? How about a stick clip for those vertically challenged? I just use this as a good example of something that should be clear cut, but if you can't understand this simple example of why you don't change the nature of the climbing it indicates you probably are making other mistakes.
I can only make a few trips to the valley per year, I'm not going to waste my precious time there having a conversation about climbing ethics and style. So to me this is a perfect forum for having these discussions. I "own" Yosemite just as much as someone who spends much more time there. It's a public park.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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Oh for crying out loud, poop on his rope and call it a day. Then we'll get a chance to post on another thread "discussing" the "merits" of fiber diets.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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I have yet to hear a compelling reason why the FA party should blanket own the route
Oh, yeah? If Bridwell, Hawkins, and a few other dudes got you back by
the dumpsters behind Degnans you'd understand why.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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as I said in the parallel thread...
the FA team did the first ascent... that is unique... they did it without knowing any details about the route...
they didn't die doing it, they didn't get seriously injured...
everyone who comes later has at least that FA report, and can make a decision based on it.
why would you change the route in light of the fact that the FA team pulled off the ascent, demonstrating that it could be done?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
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Spot on, Mike!
There are routes to suit all tastes and styles. No one person should imagine that they have any right to "homogenize" all routes.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
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Not everything is meant for one and all to climb.
The masses were never meant to climb either.
It's the warrior class.
It's now infiltrated and run by the pussy class.
The pussy class is trying to imitate the warrior class.
Some routes have been done in a certain way for a reason of high caliber.
When the world has become soft the soft will come to alter these routes to their present soft consciousness.
And thus the world will continue to slide downhill into softness (pussyfide)
It's happening because the fools "think" there's only one life period.
They are clueless .......
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