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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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rgold, I understand that re set theory. My point is that for most students set theory is useless; basic math skills should be taught. It was understandable to me in the 7th grade, but stupid in the sense that I knew it was useless for most students.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Our society has devolved to where everything is
somebody else’s fault.
I think our society has devolved to where only scammers are rewarded. Kids see this. What's the point of hard work, when hard work gets you nowhere? Learning to game the system is how you get ahead. Lies and cheating get you farther than producing something useful. You don't get a comfortable retirement by saving or investing, you get ahead by skimming money off of 401Ks. Etc., etc.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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I have a general interest in economics, and I remember hearing from a colleague about college professors in Russia working for dirt, dirt wages--like they could do almost anything else to earn more money but stuck to the university because they loved their subjects and could spend their days with intelligent, like-minded people. So, once in the faculty lounge, I asked a senior philosophy professor what was the least he would accept to do this job--i.e. teaching undergrads at a community college in a California Central Valley town. Keep in mind that the job is basically eight months of work when you include all breaks, and there were good health bennies. The dude had a PhD, so take that for what it's worth. His answer? No less than $90k! I almost choked on my coffee but managed to keep a straight face. Seemed liked some pretty fierce entitlement syndrome to me, especially considering that EVERYONE starts these jobs at much, much, much lower pay scales. I started my own career making $36k. Of course, if the job were in San Francisco or other very expensive town, $90k is not even middle class, but when I say Central Valley, I'm not talking Davis or Sacramento.
So here's a question: What should a veteran teacher living in an affordable area get paid?
BAd
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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rgold, I understand that re set theory. My point is that for most students set theory is useless; basic math skills should be taught. It was understandable to me in the 7th grade, but stupid in the sense that I knew it was useless for most students.
First of all, two are not mutually exclusive; I acquired all the basic math skills and then some. But I think the main problem arises when one decides that enriched essential content is "useless for most students." The problem isn't that in hindsight the observation might not be true, it is that deciding which students are going to get that enriched content pretends to understand the potential and future intellectual trajectory of very young people, condemning those sorted into the "most" category to numerical and mathematical illiteracy and possibly robbing the nation of important future contributors.
Naturally, one hopes for teachers who understand the material (this is a major reason for the failure of mathematics initiatives) and are good at helping kids master it, and it is and will be an ongoing quest to find and train appropriate candidates. Meanwhile, I think boring a few kids with ideas and concepts they end up not using later is better than stunting the potential of an unknown (and unknowable) number of young people.
Returning to a personal note, I am glad that, as we learned elements of set theory and number theory, subjects my parents did not understand and could not help me with, they did not undermine the enterprise by proclaiming it a stupid waste of time, but rather expressed pride in the fact that their child was exceeding their own knowledge, and so was privileged to contemplate wider horizons than the ones that circumscribed their lives.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Whoa dude you're sounding way Ayn Rand there.
I've worked hard. I have not scammed and cheated the system. Can't you say the same?
Ding, Ayn Rand thinks the scammers come from below, but the scammers are at the top. Bankers, Wall Street shysters, etc. In our generation, work still had some reward. It's different now. The kids see who gets ahead. I see it in my stepson's circle. Truth and honesty get you nothing. It's the scam that gets rewarded. Look no further than the White House for a great example.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Read some interesting stuff about how much money British universities get compared to ours.
It is a pittance yet by any metric they graduate students who are far better educated in a
broader sense, particularly in their international outlook. All my nieces and nephews have
sheepskins from good, or even quite good, schools yet I find their breadth of knowledge quite
lacking. The one exception is my Canadian nephew who went to the U of Ottawa. He is
tri-lingual in French and German and knows world history far better than any of his cousins.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Hi Robert L. You have some very good questions. With respect to analyzing students prior knowlege, I think you went straight to the heart of what is important in teaching. Feeding students facts in a vacuum is not very effective. Isolated memories dont stick. They fade into the abyss they were planted in. Memory is strongest when it is associated with other established long term memory, especially if attached to archetypal memory. For this reason I encourage students to associate new ideas with archetypes they already have established. This requires understanding what those archetypes are. They are different for each person. The "Name Game" is an excellent example.
My name is Rob. So I go by Rob Rooster. The alliteration attaches the name to the letter R, a universal archetype. And the Rooster is also an archetype in peoples memory. Each student chooses an animal archetype that hopefully, but not always starts with the same letter as their name. In ten minutes a group of twelve students can each recite all the other students names. I have used this method to remember up to 150 students names in one day.
It is critical that we attach what is learned to what students already know. The concept of symantic networks is a good illustration. I find that asking alot of questions and encouraging students to explain things to me gives me insight into their thought process. It is not my way to force my thought process on my students. Rather I prefer to help them add to the thought process they already have. It is usually counterproductive to break down and replace someones thinking. Like building a house, we build additions and remodel. While I try to be a role model, often the student is the best role model for themselves. I try to understand their world view and build on that. I must admit, I have not practiced that idea very well in my latest rant on this thread. I subconsciously wanted to humiliate someone I was angry with and it shows in my "lecture." A master teacher once told me "dont butt heads with your students." We call that "the treadmill."
As for re teaching or replacing old knowlege, it is a tough subject. In climbing, when desperate, the hardest thing to do is apply techniques we learned. Often we degenerate back to our oldest instincts to thrutch and thug our way. Similarly with music and academic subjects, old habits are hard to break. It seems best to start over sometimes and build new foundations. Rather than tear down the old house and bulldoze it, perhaps we should just build a new house of a different style next door and choose to live in it. We can still visit the old one. If the new house burns down or gets moldy, we may need to move back. The same is true with learning and thought processes. They all have value.
And Robert, I am honored and proud to say that my students are teachers, professors, doctors, climbers, riggers, scientists, models, parents, soldiers; and some have followed the path of addiction. Some have problems that I regret. But I am still proud of them. And I will always love them. My students have taught me far more in life than I will ever teach any one of them. The door to my classroom is always open.
Hey Kingtut, that was very nice of you to aknowlege me after I was so belligerent. I will try to learn something from what you post when I read here. I apologize too.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Build more prisons...Crowd control is cheaper than educating the masses...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Feb 10, 2018 - 07:20am PT
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What is the pay comparison between a prison guard and teacher?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Feb 10, 2018 - 08:57am PT
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Average Correctional Officer Yearly Salary in New York. Correctional Officers earn a median salary of $65,540 per year. Salaries typically start from $44,060 and go up to $80,130. From https://www.sokanu.com/careers/correctional-officer/salary/new-york/.
According to the National Education Agency, New York offers the sixth best salary to beginning teachers in the nation ($41,079) and the overall best average teacher salary ($69,118). The New York State Education Department reports it as slightly higher, though — $70,518. Of course, the price of living in New York is significantly higher than in most states... From http://www.teachingdegree.org/new-york/salary/.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 10, 2018 - 10:16am PT
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Enjoyed "revisiting" this thread. As a teacher myself for over 30 years,.....it's always fascinating to hear everyone's "take" on education and teaching. Lots of different ideas and thoughts on the subject. I appreciate all these posts....even the "derailed" ones. At the end of the day, and at the end of my career in education, I say thank you to those of my students who appreciate all of my hard work, love, kindness , money spent, long hours, tears, soul searching, second/third/fourth chances. Your appreciation and growth/development and accomplishments in life make me proud of you and proud to be your teacher. Those who want to point your finger at me and my fellow teachers and blame us for your problems and societies problems;....well....I wish you had me as your teacher, for I didn't teach my students to act and think that way. I taught them be kind, caring, happy, healthy, contributing, hard working, appreciative, creative, compassionate, confident, risk taking, positive, outgoing ass-kickers. We know that so many students have huge challenges at home and it's a big uphill battle to piece it all together. Many students are unsuccessful for a multitude of reasons and "bad apple" teachers is one of those reasons, but far from the main reason. I challenge everyone to really take a close look into what most teachers actually do for kids all day everyday, for not much pay and challenging work conditions. It's very amazing and inspiring! Better yet;....become and teacher, grab the tiger by the tail and do your best to make a difference and be a positive influence in a young person's life...especially in today's world which seems to be more and more difficult to navigate each year! Teaching is not for everyone, but if it's a good fit for you, I say BRAVO to you! If you like climbing, teaching gives you lots of time to climb your ass off. Thank you to my teachers that I had growing up, thank you to my fellow co-workers I taught with, and thank you to those teachers who teach my own three children. Original question of the post?...are we hiring the wrong teachers.....no. Are we paying them too little.....of course. As for the high school student who feels public education let him down and Chuck Chongo is the answer, I admire your spunk and feisty attitude;....channel that spirit and you will do amazing things and climb big mountains! (Chongo lived on my sofa for six months a year for a decade or longer in Joshua Tree and I am familiar with the teachings of Chongo...I think you are onto something....at least something worth investigating more.).
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Feb 10, 2018 - 11:04am PT
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Thanks for the post, Todd. You said it all. For those who think teaching is "easy" money, I say: Try it. The whole spectrum is difficult--from K through university, each with its own challenges. When it goes well, when the students get it, when the classroom is smokin', it's one of the best feelings ever. A great day in the classroom was as good as any great day on the crags--and I'm not being facetious. But the challenges can and do wear on you. My decision to retire was not uncomplicated. I think I'll always miss some parts of the job. Thank you for working so hard for the kids. You have my admiration.
BAd
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Feb 10, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
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Build more prisons...Crowd control is cheaper than educating the masses...
And you can make the prisoners work and you don't even have to pay minimum wage.
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Feb 10, 2018 - 01:02pm PT
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Damn, after a long absence from ST, Im dragged back in by an education post and not a climbing post. So be it....Im 65 and on Medicare now!
Im a retired middle school principal currently doing consultant work for the Charter schools here in Lancaster. I successfully talked the Charter school into building an indoor climbing wall and Im having a blast teaching P.E. using said improvement. Back on topic, let me just state my views, which have not changed.....
1. Teachers are the most underpaid workforce in America! This is more a condition of American values than anything else.
2. A large percentage of American teachers are misplaced in the profession.
3. In order to be an effective teacher and transitional figure, you must possess the following:
- a belief that every human being has a human potential they have not yet reached.
- a belief in yourself that you you can make a difference in the lives of young persons.
- an unabiding distaste for simple answers to complex problems, and a commitment to
Instilling in young persons a thirst gor knowledge and new experiences.
TEACHING IS NOT SCIENCE..IT IS ART!!
By the way.....I am Cracko
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 13, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
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Nothing but respect for teachers but the bottom line is we’re not turning out very well
edifumcated kids. A lot of that can be thrown at the feet of parents who don’t create a
wholesome atmosphere, a lot at the feet of the bureaucracy, and some at the feet of teachers.
This is some disturbing stuff...
http://www.timgaiser.com/blog/why-geography-matters
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 15, 2018 - 05:22pm PT
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Though Haab's heroism wasn't needed, assistant football coach Aaron Feis' was. Haab said he saw Feis running toward the gunman, and he later learned that Feis was among those killed as he tried to shield students from the shooter.
"That's Coach Feis. He wants to make sure everybody is safe before himself," Haab said.
We don't pay them enough. In every school shooting, there are these stories of teachers shielding students with their bodies.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Feb 15, 2018 - 05:43pm PT
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I'll have to say, I was a bit depressed going in to my classroom today. I've played the scenario over in my head many times. They actually recommend that teachers take aggressive action now.
Mr. Feis, holy sh!t!!!!!! Laid down his life. What an incredible thing to do, but I'm sure it never occurred to him to do anything else. It's a no-brainer, your first responsibility is to protect your kids, just as if they were your own. We should expect nothing less from our teachers.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Feb 15, 2018 - 07:37pm PT
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Primarily it's the republican congressional responsibility not under-paid teachers , to protect American citizens but they are too busy padding their off shore bank accounts with NRA bribes... I'm waiting for the day when some armed psycho walks into congress and unloads a few AR-15 clips into our upstanding republicans...
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Feb 16, 2018 - 02:16am PT
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I'm waiting for the day when some armed psycho walks into congress and unloads a few AR-15 clips into our upstanding republicans... Me, too, brother. Me, too.
Party at my house when it does happen, y'all are invited.
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