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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:15am PT
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TGT pasted a link which was a report from Bali, not Iraq but at the end contained the following connection to the talk about the Bali bombing
".. I had visited a couple of Yezidi villages in Iraq in 2005, and written about them, and now was their turn to suffer again. Today while Komang’s parents suffer in Bali, there are probably Yezidi children with no parents. Children who are injured and afraid and suddenly alone. All for nothing. All because of savages...."
Savage is a dangerous word when you are a foreign conquerer of a different race and religion that comes to a country for no true reason and has to fall back on "We're saving them so they can live like us."
People who kill innocent people are savages but the West has killed 10x the innocent people in Iraq that the Iraqis have killed. Is it so less savage that we do it from the sky or with high tech weapons?
Peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 17, 2007 - 11:15am PT
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Looks like the local Al-Qada types had their " Northfield Minesota" moment.
"Baqouba Guardians with IP repel al-Qaeda attack
Multi-National Division – North PAO
BAQOUBA, Iraq – In an unprecedented combined action in Diyala Province, Iraqi police and citizen volunteers defeated a coordinated attack of approximately 40-60 al-Qaeda terrorists in the southern Burhitz area of Baqouba, Wednesday, and killed an estimated 21 insurgents, wounding more.
As the terrorists entered the city of Burhitz, a group of concerned local citizens, called ‘Baqouba Guardians,’ and IPs stationed in Burhitz engaged the first wave of attackers, killing seven. At least two suicide bombers were killed before they reached their intended targets, with the bomb vests detonating prematurely.
The IP notified the Provincial Joint Coordination Center and requested Coalition Force attack helicopter support after the first engagement. Attack helicopters arrived and engaged another large group of heavily armed fighters staging near the first attack site, killing or wounding an estimated 14 terrorists.
Approximately six citizens were killed and up to 20 more wounded during this attack. Iraqi Security Forces are continuing to secure the scene, pursue al-Qaeda, and move wounded to the Baqouba General Hospital.
“Baqouba should be proud of their security forces and their citizen guardians today,” said Col. Steve Townsend, commander, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division. “All fought side-by-side and soundly defeated a complex attack from a determined enemy. This thing could have been much worse had those suicide bombers reached their targets,” said Townsend.
"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 17, 2007 - 12:07pm PT
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Come on TGT, it's your thread. How about a little more than cut and paste?
What's that article mean? That Shiites were able to defeat Sunnis in their own territory in this Iraqi Civil war? Unlike the hundreds killed earlier this week in the Kurdish North?
What are you really advocating and how is it going to succeed, and what sacrifices will we need to make? IF you aren't going to answer this repeated question, then at least admit so much.
This is a democracy. Your, and our, opinion counts. You are posting advocacy for a certain means of moving forward that will have consequences in our economy and in people's lives. What are you saying?
Peace
Karl
Edit. if you link your lazy pastings, we can get the rest of the info and know where you are assuming and we won't have to assume much ourselves
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 17, 2007 - 12:28pm PT
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Uh, it was Sunnis vs Al-Queda Foreign Sunnis (and a few of their local Sunni followers).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2007 - 12:29pm PT
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Karl,
In my biased opinion, it's sounds like regardless of what religion the attackers were, the (sunni?) town had set up a defensive brigade to prevent troublemakers from stirring up shite in the town.
They saw a bunch of guys entering the town heavily armed and confronted them. I'm not sure if they asked for religious affiliation first.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 17, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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I assumed the intended victims were Shiites since the report said it was a Southern Area. Are you assuming the attackers were foreign? Sounds like your telling me that Sunnis were attacking Sunnis. I call bullsh#t.
Cause the Government is making a big deal about Al Queda when even the military reports that Al Queda is only 10-15% of the problem.
And Al Queda doesn't necessarily mean foreign nor even having the remotest connection to Bin Laden's group. Basically, pissed Sunni Iraqis wanted to associate themselves with that Al Queda name and there are many, many folks being called Al Queda who have never been out of Iraq, nor have any real link to anything but the name.
So when Sunni kill people, they call em AL Queda, and when Shiites kill people, they call em Sadr's militia. It's half lies or worse
again, what does this mean? You are asking folks to f*#king die over there, you better think it through.
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 17, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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I guess these "guardians" were formed just last month and now they're heros, according to the only sorces covering the story so far, which was a couple right wing blogs and the US military propaganda site.
The stars and stripes did have this tidbit, Guess Al Queda isn't the only ones destroying things locally over there.
"Also on hand was Iraqi Minister for Industry Fawzi Hariri, who said deficiencies in fuel and food supplies to the province were being addressed by the central government. He said everyone had a stake in making Diyala productive.
According to the minister, around $82,000 was recently passed on to the Diyala governor’s office for improvements to services in the province. But this is only a drop in the bucket, several sheiks said.
But central government is also allocating $50 million to Diyala province for compensation for homes and properties destroyed by coalition forces in the purging of al-Qaida, officials say. An additional $30 million is being allocated for agricultural projects.
John Jones, chief of the U.S. State Department’s provincial reconstruction team in Diyala, who acts as a liaison with regional government officials, said a slow approach was being taken in efforts to help rebuild the area.
“Our problem is that until we see some progress on the part of the Iraqis, we’re being a bit cautious,” he said."
Something's fishy in this story. Why would Al Queda stage a mass attack on Sunnis?
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
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Baquba (Baqouba) is Northeast of Baghdad, so it probably is almost all Sunni. It is a bit strange that every suicide mission in Iraq is attributed to Al Qaeda, but it could just be that any foriegn fighter is just lumped into the group. I'm assuming that they determined these attackers were non-Iraqi, but that's an assumption.
As to what it means, I'd say that it means Iraqi's are getting fed up with these troublemakers and are prepared to confront them and not allow them to get footholds in their communities. If for no other reason that when these troublemakers are around, U.S. firepower soon follows, and Iraqi's are probably just willing to deal with it first. However, since they called in air support, the latter is probably not the case.
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 17, 2007 - 02:08pm PT
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TGT-
it's fine to cut and paste that story, but please add the link to where you found it so we can all be clear on the source, it's all bullshit if you don't link the source, sorry pal.
LINK PLEASE?
ps- doesn't anyone even wonder how these guys can ID the 'terrorists' as AQ?
and just what exactly differentiates a 'terrorist' from an 'insurgent'? seriously. if you are eating this crap up w/ a spoon, at least be able to tell me the flavor.
edit- blueguy, good on ya for making the same point. there is more going on in the areas N of bagdad than we hear about in the MSM. lots of oil up there, lots of competition for the dominant position in those areas, lots of support from non-iraqi entities on all sides, probably even more ridiculous to be stamping the AQ on all the violence in that area than it is in shiite areas (where it may at least be primarily suni/shiite or shiite/suni violence).
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 17, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
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bingo
"the official website of (the selling of) the occupation of iraq"
my point made so perfectly!
and how ironic that you didn't originally include the link, and now don't want to discuss it...
we don't need a long drawn out discussion, but please at some point respond to this:
why was rumsfeld so into the word 'insurgents' (back when they had everything under control and we were just going to train some iraqis and leave), yet now there are apparently no more insurgents, and every last iraqi w/ a bad attitude or in need of a cup of coffe is a terrorist?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2007 - 02:47pm PT
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"and every last iraqi w/ a bad attitude or in need of a cup of coffe is a terrorist? "
C'mon Matt, that's a bit disengenuous, don't you think? If they're sport explosive vests, truck-mounted AA, or even walking aroung in a group w/ AK's I'd say yeah, better stop and have a chat with 'em.
Originally when the major combat was over and Baghdad fell, we probably thought they were insurgents, hold-outs from the Republican Guard. Now that we've determined that alot of these pests are not-Iraqi, we call them terrorists because that is their goal, not to defend their own country, but try to confront U.S. forces and generally stir shite up. But the whole Al Qaeda thing may be a bit of a stretch, I do not know.
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 17, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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(edit- what i am saying, blue, is that anyone we now perceive as an enemy in iraq we now label as a "terrorist", because it fits into the bush story that we are in iraq to fight the war on terror. if it were sectarian violence between iraqis who want revenge, territory, to gain some political advantage or prevent political progress, or to get rid of US troops in iraq, that would be more easily seen as a part of a civil war, and therefore would be less easily defined/sold as a part of the so-called 'war on teror'. /edit).
i believe the whole "it's not iraqis doing this violence" scharade has also been dropped by bushco, as there are relatively few foregin fighters ever killed or captured, relative to all the violence in iraq. now it's understood to be the saudis or the iranians who are supporting or funding the militias that they view as holding off the advancement of the other sect...
as for "a bit of a strech", you really ought to open your eyes to the way 'they' (i.e. "we") regularly and intentionally use language to paint the miriad of participants in images that support whatever story the US gov. is currently trying to tell about the war. that's how it always is.
read your own post, you actually believe the change is/was related to a change in participants? even when they were "insurgents", their main tactic was IEDs, now it's vehicle bombs more so than explosive vests. just because they didn't fight w/ tanks does not make them terrorists, we just use all those words to try to make them all sound like small time dickheads.
remember 'dead-enders' and 'ex-bathists'? same deal. the US gov. was/is just trying to de-legitimize them, never mind that at some point they will very likely succeed in driving us from iraq, just like they did to the british so long ago.
perhaps we ought to have taken them more seriously from the get-go.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2007 - 04:14pm PT
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This is too long to cut/paste so I'll just link it. It's cross-linked from Michael Yon's site. "Believing is seeing", not the other way around. It's a bit off topic but an interesting read that philosophizes that images/photographs don't really tell the whole story that our eyes interpret.It's common sense, but an interesting read all the same. Enjoy!
http://morris.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/will-the-real-hooded-man-please-stand-up/#comments
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 17, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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This is all like arguing on some random fireline whether backburning or bulldozing is the better option when the overall fire is about a half million acres...
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 17, 2007 - 04:54pm PT
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that is a great analogy.
so if you haven't done any effective fire management, should you just let everything burn? should you fight the fire w/ everything you have? just fight in some spots? should you protect communities at all costs, or at some point do you evacuate and hope for the best?
there are no right answers, you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't, and either way you are looking at a huge fire.
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 18, 2007 - 05:50pm PT
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funny how you are interested in some insignificant and irrelevant fraud, and yet you apparently could care less about the huge fraud upon which all these other frauds play out.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
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Aug 18, 2007 - 06:06pm PT
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TGT- So what! This trivial story does nothing to dilute what has emerged as the image that will forever symbolize the atrocities suffered at Abu Ghraib Prison. Like the many imposters to Grand Duchess Anastasia, he doesn’t affect what happened.
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