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Scoot
Trad climber
Estes Park, CO
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Before you decide to say Al Gore is a bad man, please note that by purchasing carbon credits Gore is rewarding companies or countries that produce LESS carbon than they are alloted. Thereby not allowing the selling of there credits to other companies/countries that are producing more than they should be. He is actually taking these credits off the market, not hoarding them for himself so he can have his mansion. Gore is also in the process of converting his home to a more energy efficient one as we rant. Good luck in the future we are all in this together.
S.
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Ya know what, Pagan...me too! I started thinking about digging out my old-but-in-perfect-condition S&W 9mm and cleaning it up, doing a little target practice around the pool...
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Mimi
climber
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Has anyone read Michael Crichton's State of Fear? It's a GW geopolitical thriller. Authors he references include Beckerman, Chase, Huber, Lomborg, and Wildavsky. We should all check these guys out.
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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She can't, AC. She's stuck on auto-blab and it's an Energizer Battery.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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"Gore could have avoided this whole problem by being up front about it in the first place"
valid point imho...steals all the fire and makes it proactive, not reactive...see also marilynn manson talking with bill oreilly - take it to the hoop, don't play D...
L - you have a pool ? damn...
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Pagan--Yeah, it's in the Melrose Place style of things. Sucks for privacy but awesome for target practice...hee-hee-hee
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"HDDJ - That is tooooo funny!
I guess we can expect to see more oil when we need it!
Talk about flawed logic!
BTW. You live out near JTree? I noticed that there is a massive wind farm just to the west a few miles. Yet only 5 or 10% of the windmills were turning. What's with that?
Same was true near Yosemite. "
Um......we can expect to see more oil when we need it? WTF are you talking about? They are looking for more oil all the time. Why? Because we pay through the ass for it. If looking for oil meant building a wind farm you better believe we'd be seeing more wind farms.
And if all the wind power was "going to be used already" then why WERE those wind farms so idle? I don't know, you might have been insinuating that there was little wind or that they were shut off. In either case your statement makes no sense.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"Gore could have avoided this whole problem by being up front about it in the first place ....you know one of those - "Heck I know it is difficult and I struggle with this issue very too. For example, I have ......etc. etc." If he took more of that approach instead of the holier than thou "preachy" stance, he would not be ridiculed at this time. He set himself up for this and it was not necessary. "
I agree with the first part, he would have and could have.
The second part is totally ridiculous. If you think Al Gore is being "preachy" then you haven't actually heard what he said, you're just hearing other people tell you what he said. His movie was extremely calm, extremely humble and extremely earnest. It wasn't a rail against overconsumption and it certainly wasn't preachy. It was calm, confident and made an urgent call for change in green house gas emissions. It wasn't a Michael Moore "eat the rich" screech-a-thon, and he has never said that I've seen "look at the way I live, you all should live just like me."
The "preachy" argument is simply a defensive one made by anyone who realizes that they aren't perhaps living with integrity. Someone stands up and asks why we can't do better, in this case that is in our vital self-interest that we DO do better, and we go out of our way to assassinate them, in character if not in entirety.
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raymond phule
climber
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"HDDJ - That is tooooo funny!
I guess we can expect to see more oil when we need it!
Talk about flawed logic!"
What is flawed in his logic? So a high demand in energy from windenergy is not going to result in that more windenergy is going to be built? Heard about economics?
The energy market is right now all about money. The industry is going to build new coal plants if it is one cent cheaper compared to for example windenergy. If the public wants windenergi and is interested to pay a little more, not much because windenery is actually pretty cheap, it is for example cheaper than natural gas even without CO2 cleaning (atleast in Europe) then is a lot of windenergy going to be built. The only problem might be the public opinion at the site, the not in my backyard mentality. I dont know how that is in the US. The industry is going to build and you get quite a lot of energy from it.
"BTW. You live out near JTree? I noticed that there is a massive wind farm just to the west a few miles. Yet only 5 or 10% of the windmills were turning. What's with that?
Same was true near Yosemite. "
And your point is? Was the wind blowing (edit: should have been: Is windergy crap because the wind doesn't always blow)? Is windernergy crap according to you?
What do you know about the actual windfarm? What do you know about modern windenergy? Do you know how much you energi you actually get from a windturbine, windfarm per year? My quess is that you know NOTHING. You just try to sell your politics with posts without any meaning, as you always do.
I have seen windfarms between San Fransisco and Yosemite. These parks are very very old, the turbines are very old and completely obsolute. It is nothing like a modern windfarm that consist of windturbines of a couple of MW each.
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raymond phule
climber
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Gore's yearly electric consumption is equal to 11 days running for a state of the art comercialy available 3 MW windturbine if my calculations are correct.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Gore is not advocating that Americans not pursue the Americn Dream, strive to be successful, perhaps have a big house one day. It’s about being conscious about your usage of energy and its effect on the environment.
If everyone ponied up extra money to buy green enbergy, CO2 emmissions from coal plants would be reduced greatly. Promoting government action to regulate air-pollution and carbon emissions does not require one to live in a shoebox - only to do what is reasonable to reduce personal impact, and support government initiatives.
Only if Gore had suggested living excllusively in small houses in order to comply with his conservation message would he have been guilty of hypocrisy.
Consider the source. Who would spend the time to investigate Gore’s home energy bill? What are their motrivations in spending the money to do so? Who gains from this report?
The Tennessee Center for Policy Research’s current President was a member of the American Enterprise Institute (members include Newt Gingrich, John Bolton, Robert Bork, Lynn Cheney, among others.) AEI, for example, received $1.6M from ExxonMobil over a 10 year period.
Compare electricity bills from one family that cares about our planet and another family that could care less about it:
The Gore Family’s electricity bill for the entire year past was about $16,308. The price was inflated by 58% because the Gores chose to purchase non-polluting, renewable energy only.
The Cheney Family’s electricity bill for the year 2001 was $186,000. That’s right! You read that number correctly. And it gets even better. Guess who paid Dick’s elecctricity bill? YOU DID! Dick stiffed us with his electricity bill!
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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careful darnell - or he'll take you 'hunting'...^^
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raymond phule
climber
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Good post Darnell.
Everything about energy is money. There are some means to start people using green energy.
Goverment subvention of green energy.
Fees on bad energy, a price for every ton CO2 poluted for example.
Get people the choice of choosing what energi they want to by. Different prices from different energy sources.
For example is coal just to cheap for green energy to actually compete with without for example fees.
One possibility is ofcourse also rules that forbid bad energy or a public opinion but a market solution is probably better.
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screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
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Man o man, this whole thread is so lame.
We live in a region that represents 3% of the world's population and we use 25%+ of all oil-based energy. We're like a bunch of really fat people arguing whether one of the fatties is really morbidly obese. WTF? This Gore thing is a side show. It's irrelevant. It doesn't friggin matter.
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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No ray fool, the wind was not blowing. They were turning the 10% or so windmills that were turning with electric motors. There were 10 kids in front of one of them blowing until their faces were turning blue.
Yeah some of them were turning at a nice rate! So I guess the others were old and busted, right?
Give me a break. Almost all of our nuke plants are still running and they are mostly over 30 now.
You know so much about these wind turbines. How about telling us how much energy they can capture in a 10 mph breeze. Be sure to give us the diameter of the intake. How fast is the wind moving behind the turbine?
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raymond phule
climber
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"Yeah some of them were turning at a nice rate! So I guess the others were old and busted, right?"
Yes
"Give me a break. Almost all of our nuke plants are still running and they are mostly over 30 now."
Ok, so windenergi is bad because they dont hold forever? That the first turbines in a new technology wasn't very good definitely proves that there are crap now also. Is that your point?
"You know so much about these wind turbines. How about telling us how much energy they can capture in a 10 mph breeze. Be sure to give us the diameter of the intake. How fast is the wind moving behind the turbine?"
I have no time now and it depends on the turbine?
Did you have a point about your anecdot or was it just wind energy is crap because the old turbines didn't rotate when I saw them would argument that works to convience LEB and Chaz?
edit:
"No ray fool, the wind was not blowing. They were turning ..."
I made an error in my post, sorry.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"Give me a break. Almost all of our nuke plants are still running and they are mostly over 30 now. "
TIG do you think about these things at all before you say them? Do you have any idea how much money the taxpayers pour into nuclear power every year to make it profitable? Not to mention how much taxpayer money went into making nuclear power exist as a technology to begin with? If the feds pulled their cash from the nuke plants you'd be driving by plenty of idle nuclear plants.
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Alan Doak
climber
boulder, co
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Juan,
The giant space reflector idea doesn't work. The momentum of all of those ions and photons (yes, photons have no mass but they do have momentum) reflecting off the mylar sheet would cause it to literally sail off.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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knott if was backed up with a clove hitch
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jstan
climber
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That was a great deal of fun. Is there anything we can learn from it? I took a look at the results and tried to cast the opinion into three topics:
Gore (For/Against)
Is there global Warming( Yes/No)
Other topics
I did what I could to set my bias aside but I would be saying something I cannot know were I to claim I was fully successful. (I lifted this wording from one of Lincoln’s addresses during the Lincoln/Douglas debates. Well worth reading)
I counted 46 different screen names.
23 people came out supporting Gore with an average of 3.7 posts per person.
11 people came out against Gore with an average of 5.3 posts per person.
While there was a lot of shading, no one really denied global warming exists.
As the discussion continued and people had said what they had on their mind, the count in the "Other" column increased in strength. Judging what to put in this column was difficult as people often hit an issue obliquely and leave the content of their message to inference and association. But I did what I could. 77 posts ended up in this column.
Now I am one of the people who can be criticized for preaching. So I will say nothing more here.
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