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BigBlue
Trad climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 29, 2017 - 07:28am PT
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What I really can't understand is how you, BigBlue, feel "punished" as a woman if you go on a bold adventure. This sounds to me like imagined victimization with an implied finger pointed at men as the culprits.
Warbler, with regards to reward and punishment I’m not talking about the experiences of individual climbers in relation to their climbing achievements. I’m talking about the innumerable social cues both small and large that we all experience from the moment we’re born that train us that it’s normal for men to take charge and for women to follow. Social rewards and punishments (like boys being encouraged to play outside, and girls to play house-house) make it easier to go along with these constructs than to buck them, for both men and women. So when a woman has a noteworthy climbing achievement it’s despite these lifelong social cues that she should not, in fact, be bold.
I’m not saying that every time a woman climbs a mountain men set out to punish her. On the contrary – most climbers I know are psyched to hear about climbing achievements regardless of gender. Post-summiting is not necessarily where the reward and punishment is meted out. Rather its exacted at each small step along the path to that summit, starting with a little girl being labelled a tomboy.
What I am saying is that society expects women not to be bold, and this expectation is drilled into us from the day we’re born. In this context it’s much harder for a teenage girl, say, to even think of exploring alpinism. I’m not casting men as villains – both men and women perpetuate the myth of men’s boldness and women’s meekness.
We all participate in the system because we have no choice – it’s all we have. We can choose how to participate though. For instance we can deliberately choose to use more photos of women climbers leading hard routes. Alternatively we can choose not think about it too much and just select photos that “feel” right to us, and that will most likely perpetuate the norms that society has socialised into us.
We can choose to acknowledge that it’s a harder for a woman to feel validated by society in her choice to be an alpinist than it is for a man. Or we can choose to ignore it and claim that it’s an equal path, and that there are fewer women alpine climbers because women just aren’t that into big mountains.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 29, 2017 - 07:38am PT
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What I am saying is that society expects women not to be bold, and this expectation is drilled into us from the day we’re born.
Perhaps thirty years ago. Watch any commercial and you will see a strong female leading a bumbling incompetent male. This has been the case for decades. There are endless movies directed to kids with female leads cast as strong bold women. The movie "brave" comes to mind as one
Society changed a long time ago. You people are complaining about fictional problems you have imagined as a need to satiate your addiction to being outraged
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 29, 2017 - 07:46am PT
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BigBlue....thanks for your refreshing, well reasoned, contributions to this topic!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 29, 2017 - 08:48am PT
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Excellent post, Big Blue. Thx.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 29, 2017 - 10:44am PT
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Clearly not given your posts well-illustrate the kind of nonsense women have to put up with every day, day-in, day-out.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 29, 2017 - 11:25am PT
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Not this discussion again.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Nov 29, 2017 - 12:00pm PT
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The male approach to equality and acceptance has always been "too bad, sucka... try harder or start your own thing if you don't fit in here" and falling on your ass has always been an acceptable outcome in social and work situations.
the feminist womyn's way is to demand everyone change for them and them alone, litigate, accuse and if they fail it's someone else's fault, because everyone should love, support, and bend over backwards for them. which is why their approach inevitable creates infighting and internal disorder as competency and resiliency under adversity is often exchanged for treading on eggshells and finger pointing
there are plenty of men and women who see through this bullsh#t. maybe there is a middle ground, but if so, we are far from it currently
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BigBlue
Trad climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 29, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
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women are biologically not as "bold" as men. Society doesn't "expect" it - rather, society exists because of it. Do young women take up arms and face death and disfigurement in battle against other women? As men have done, and still do, for all of history?
Warbler, I disagree with your argument that men's biology makes it inevitable they will wage war. What percentage of men who go to war do so because they simply love killing other men? I don't know the answer but I suspect it's negligibly small (if not we have a way bigger problem than patriarchy or racism - first we have to deal with the raging horde of sociopaths).
Now compare this very small number to the percentage of men who go to war because they feel they must - out of a sense of patriotic duty, or a responsibility to their family, or out of fear of losing face to other men and being labeled a coward, or because of a financial imperative (not because of testosterone). This second percentage is way bigger, probably encompassing the vast majority of the armed forces. They are mostly responding to the tiny cues they've been given their whole lives that it is manly and good to go to war. And while going to war is not an easy thing, it can be easier than bucking the system and not going. And when those men are over there killing other men and trying not to be killed by them, I suspect top of mind for most of them is simply to not get killed, to come home safe, and to not let their buddies down. That's not testosterone at work. The first two are survival. And the third is avoiding the shame of being a coward and a response to the huge value that society places on the concept of brothers in arms.
Serious alpine climbing has some of the same dynamics as battle. Testosterone has been proven over and over to encourage aggressive and risk taking behavior I also disagree with your argument that elevated risk taking resulting from testosterone is the reason there are more male alpinist than female. Societal effects have a far larger influence. Look at the amazing track record of Polish climbers on the worlds highest mountains in the '80's (documented in the brilliant book Freedom Climbers by Bernadette McDonald). They took on way more risk than most other climbers, climbed some mind bending routes, and paid a huge price in loss of life. All of this wasn't because they had more testosterone than other men. Rather their relationship with risk was completely different to most other high altitude mountaineers, due mostly to the society they came from.
Furthermore the comparison of alpinism with war and the assertion that aggression is a prerequisite for success on big routes is simply not true. Sure, extreme aggression is one way to get up a mountain (a la Mark Twight). Another way (Voytek Kurtyka for instance) is to view a climb as a mystical and almost religious experience, not even remotely aggressive. There are many other ways. Who knows what ways the women of the future will discover, perhaps even because they are biologically different to men. What is true is that we will never know if we don't acknowledge that we all participate in a system where girls are schooled to follow, and if we don't then deliberately choose how we act within that system. And back on topic the action in this instance is the earth shattering inclusion of more pictures of women in climbing hand books.
After years of accusing men of limiting female potential through sexism and misogyny, and being accused themselves of sexism and misandry, hard core feminists now feign fairness by also blaming their fellow (unenlightened) women for the insurmountable differences btw the sexes Finally Warbler, you seem convinced someone is trying to apportion blame. Maybe someone is but it ain't me. I'm just saying: see the system - it really is there. And knowing of its existence choose to act deliberately, not accidentally or by default.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 29, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
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It was Bonnie and Clyde, not Clyde and Bonnie.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 29, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
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Alpine climbing is something I feel competent to expound on. Twight may have used aggression to compensate for some skill deficiencies. I have been on many cutting edge alpine climbs and I don’t believe that naked aggression is a valuable component to success.
I do believe that dogged determination is a really important ingredient but I feel that preparation is the most important factor of all. Preparation has many facets....developing the right skills, physical fitness, choice of partners, choice of equipment and strategy all come into play.
It has to be quite obvious that gender has no play in preparation. Additionally, Kitty Calhoun, who I don’t consider aggressive, is one of the most determined humans I have ever met. Kitty also prepares herself 24/7 when it comes to training and diet.
I believe that there definetly are qualities that not everyone possesses that are important for serious alpine climbing. I just don’t believe they are gender based. I do believe that societal norms for gender are a factor in why there are currently fewer women in the alpine realm. I also believe that societal norms are in a constant state of change.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 29, 2017 - 03:29pm PT
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Mr. Donini,
You're observations are keen, I'd say.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Nov 29, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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Hey eKat,
You said GreatGooglyMoogly
Don't forget about the Great Googley Boogley
kev
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 29, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
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I think there is definitely something to the role model angle. As I read more from female climbers, they reference other women especially as role models, women who showed them what was possible. For most of climbing's brief history, it's been almost totally a man's game. It's good to see more examples of women in the sport. From Destivelle and Calhoun and Freer on the big peaks, to Margo Hayes and Hill and Harrington and Shanti Pack on the rock, women are getting it done on bigger and badder routes all the time. Think of how far they've come in so short a time with so relatively fewer climbers! I think Warbler's on the wrong side on this one. Women have only just started. Hell, who's that little girl who just sent 15b? Stand back, boyz.
BAd
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BigBlue
Trad climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 29, 2017 - 11:20pm PT
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So why are there so many sport climbing women of note, and so few alpine climbing women of note?
Because there are less photos of women alpine climbers?
What are examples of societal constraints that govern one but not the other?
One of the primary differences between sport and alpine is the huge influence mentorship has in alpinism. As Warbler points out, climbing gyms resulted in a massive jump in numbers (across genders). There’s virtually no impediment to becoming proficient in a gym environment. You don’t need a network of older, more experienced climbers – it helps but it’s not a prerequisite. Alpine climbing is different. If you go out there and try figure it out on your own you’ll either get nowhere or wind up dead.
If most alpinists are men who believe that women just aren’t cut out for alpinism because by default they don’t have “the pure and passionate drive from within” and because they have lower testosterone and aren’t aggressive enough, then of course they’re unlikely to choose to mentor young women. Every successful alpinist can point to one or more highly influential mentor. The same isn’t true of sport climbing. So I agree with Warbler that more photos of women alpinists is a small thing and probably won’t make a massive difference. But it is an easy thing which will make some difference (with no downside). Part of what it may do is change the subconscious perception from both men and women that alpinism is a male arena.
What would make a much bigger difference, though, is if alpinists in a position to mentor young climbers broadened their vision to include young women climbers, and even more importantly, young girls.
“I was Peak bagging in The Sierra in Boy Scouts at the age of 10”.
I wonder what the 10 year-old girl scouts were doing? I suspect they weren’t out there peak bagging with boys. Maybe those 10 year old girls just lacked “the pure and passionate drive from within”. Or maybe all the adults believed that it’s not normal for little girls to go out peak bagging. Which force would have had the bigger influence on little Warbler-girl-child who was just dreaming of being in the mountains – her innate passion and drive, or all the adults around her telling her her dream is wrong and she should find a new one that’s more comfortable for everyone?
It’s a fact that alpinism is hard for anyone to get into, much harder than sport climbing. It’s also a fact that it’s harder for women to get into than men.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Nov 29, 2017 - 11:56pm PT
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"It’s a fact that alpinism is hard for anyone to get into, much harder than sport climbing. It’s also a fact that it’s harder for women to get into than men."
blah blah blah boo hoo whine cry
just the latest version of playing the victim.
Actually it's quite easy to get into alpinism these days. Why should we care about trying to make it even more crowded? With all the info on the internet and videos everywhere, I wish it were harder and kept more people away.
35 years ago, I and 2 friends of mine (all 3 engineers) taught ourselves almost everything, with no mentors, no guiding, no videos, no internet, no cell phones, no superlight gear, Just some magazines, and slowly bought enough gear like first generation cams, straight shaft axes, heavy boots, guidebooks from roper, wilts, & wolfe.
Do whatever you want. Don't blame other people for your own issues.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Nov 30, 2017 - 12:10am PT
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"Warbler, I disagree with your argument that men's biology makes it inevitable they will wage war."
It seems to me that for all known human history, men have mostly fought the battles. And there were a lot of battles. And there would have been natural selection of those who were good in battle. Modern culture of the last 50 years does not undo 100000 years of evolution.
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BigBlue
Trad climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 30, 2017 - 12:18am PT
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35 years ago, I and 2 friends of mine (all 3 engineers) taught ourselves almost everything, with no mentors, no guiding, no videos, no internet, no cell phones, no superlight gear, Just some magazines, and slowly bought enough gear like first generation cams, straight shaft axes, heavy boots, guidebooks from roper, wilts, & wolfe. Splater, your personal experience doesn’t disprove that we all participate in a larger system. It also doesn’t change the fact that most alpinists came up through a mentorship environment dominated by men.
The value in acknowledging that it’s harder for women to become alpinists than men is not in assigning labels like victim and perpetrator, or to whine and wring hands. No. The value lies in the choices we are then able to make about how to participate in that system. Deliberate choices that could well be different from the passive default choices we might make if we were oblivious to the system.
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Nov 30, 2017 - 01:28am PT
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Splater, your personal experience doesn’t disprove that we all participate in a larger system. It also doesn’t change the fact that most alpinists came up through a mentorship environment dominated by men. Is it a "fact" that most alpinists were mentored rather than self-taught? Is it actually harder for an inexperienced woman to find a mentor than it is for an inexperienced man? Is it even true that females are underrepresented to a greater degree in alpine climbing compared to sport climbing? If any research has been posted on any of these subjects, I missed it.
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BigBlue
Trad climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 30, 2017 - 02:20am PT
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Is it a "fact" that most alpinists were mentored rather than self-taught? Is it actually harder for an inexperienced woman to find a mentor than it is for an inexperienced man? Is it even true that females are underrepresented to a greater degree in alpine climbing compared to sport climbing? If any research has been posted on any of these subjects, I missed it.
Byran, you’re missing the point.
Let’s say I’m wrong and that most alpinists are self-taught. Men are still more likely to embark on the quest teach themselves to be alpinists because all of us are schooled from a young age that its normal for men to be bold and for women to be meek.
Let’s say I’m wrong and that it’s just as easy for an inexperienced woman to find a mentor as it is for an inexperienced man. It’s still harder for her to seek out a mentor in the first place because the world around her tells her it’s not a normal thing for a woman to do.
Regarding underrepresentation – that’s what started this whole discussion: an underrepresentation of women in climbing handbooks. And this simple and non-threatening idea has taken us from testosterone via war to evolution with everything in between. Surely the mental gymnastics and vehement arguments against having more pictures of women in climbing handbooks is proof that something else is going on? What is the root of that raw nerve? Why is more pictures of women climbers such an outrageous idea? Why is it so threatening? Why is the pushback so disproportionate to the proposed action? Those are the interesting questions.
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