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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 01:23pm PT
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I've heard this viewpoint defined by a well-known FA guy, and I've heard echos in talking with others. Paraphrasing,
"Some routes we meant as testpieces. Others we didn't mean to be scary but we just didn't want to bother adding bolts to."
He asked me to add a bolt to one of his old routes in the second category. Back when he put the routes up, he didn't want to spend the time or money to add a couple more bolts to some pitches, but he'd actually prefer if I "fixed" some of his old routes as opposed to just replace the existing bolts. Yet at the same time he was also talking about chopping a bolt added to one of his routes in the testpiece category.
Thoughts on that view from other old-school folks?
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 21, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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As a face climbing kid in Tuolumne in the 70's, I recall the clear awareness had by most of the few climbers in residence that it was lopsided that the 5.11s tended to be bolt ladders and the 5.9's put up be the same folks were stout and run out. We are now faced with the classic issue of individual self expression vs. community needs. I agree both with Steve, "bring yourself up, don't lower the climb", and Karl "a shame that many fine routes are never trodden upon save by the winds and rain rattling the rare 1/4 inch spinners that make up the only protection".
The answer probably lies in the example of this thread, an approach made by those who would like to climb and survive some old scary classics to those who did the bold first ascents, to come to aggreement on replacement bolts. Has anyone asked Vern, Claude, Bob H. etc. about potentially replacing and/or adding a few bolts to some of the Tuolumne 5.9's that could use them? Case by case, and with permission of the first ascentionists will be the key, no blanket policy or doctrinaire ethical stance will work. My 2 cents.
Peter
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 21, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Greg, I know exactly what you mean. I only did a few bolted routes and none are test pieces, but even I know what you are talking about. It is pretty clear that over some period of time--probably 30 years ago, bolts were added to the last pitch of 'Hoodwink' in addition to someone replacing two of the three 'chicken' bolts we placed on the first ascent right above the roof. (The three Jim and I place were replaced by two and several more were added to the remainder of the pitch.) This is absolutely appropriate in my view. Just because Jim and I were willing to walk up 5.6 climbing without protection is no reason that the climb should be ruined for someone else.
I can also say the same thing about the little route Tom McCabe and I did on Fairview, "Peter, Peter," which has a 'R' rating because I didn't put in two bolts on the first pitch. On this route the crux--traversing under the roof and pulling the corner--is very well protected with natural gear. It seems silly to me that a nice, moderate route should be off limits to a climber who doesn't want to risk a ground fall on 5.9 just because I didn't put in a second bolt. This route is not a test piece because the crux is not hard. It is also not climbed because it is too runout on a non-crux section. Having said that, I also recognize that I am one of many voices and current climbers may be justified in insisting in leaving it the way it is, even though no one climbs the route.
On the other hand, the route 'Freewheeling' on Middle, which I helped put up with George Meyers and Kevin Worrall in 1973, should be maintained at the original level of protection. The decisions we took to place bolts were part of our ascent plan. The head-trip is part of the route. I don't think that 'Freewheeling' is a test piece by any stretch, but it is part of the collection of routes on the 'North Face Apron' that were all done in the same style and modifying one route would be taking a step on to a very slippery slope.
While these distinctions seem crystal clear to me, I don’t think it really helps much. There are other climbers of my generation who don’t want any additional bolts added to any of their routes and I am sure that there are others who cannot be bothered to have an opinion either way.
Roger
Ps: Karl posted: "My definition of an elitist is anyone who says 5.9 SHOULD always be R or X rated because a stilled climber can put up routes at that grade without pro consistently.
Now Karl, just to be clear here, are you referring to any sort of stilling or a particular type? Grain, potatoes, grapes, rice?
Buzz
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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Typo for "Skilled"
The alternative to leaving everything as it always has been, or allowing future generations to do whatever they see fit, would be for first ascensionists to outline their vision for their pasts routes as Kevin and Roger have done in this thread. A kind of First Ascensionist Registry, to be used along with community standards and "consensus" in making the calls after the pioneers have passed from the scene
PEace
Karl
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 21, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
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wtf. 200+ posts??
i got an idea.
lets: replace the fixed gear, using steve's plan and methodology.
place a ban on anyone who has not actually done the route from posting to this thread.
replacing the gear top-down is totally f*#king o.k. with me. it's GEAR REPLACEMENT, not route creation.
i don't beleive this shite.
i'm drunk, btw. burn this post.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
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Not on your life bvb. You are the voice of reason once again.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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No no no veeee must have controversy and chaos, without, it's too boring. hehehe
Kauk says add more protection bolts.
Don't-cha love it .......
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 10:53pm PT
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Kauk? Who's Kauk?
You mean this guy; on the left? And the other gorgeous hunk on the right is Doug McDonald, aka Rudy McNugget.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 21, 2006 - 11:43pm PT
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Ain't Kauk.
It's Tom Cruise posing as Kauk.
(Don't TC wish...)
And thuh other guy is Doug Vangina.
In front of the original Rose Van.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 11:46pm PT
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I stand ko-rected. But you do mean Alotta Vangina, dontcha?
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dec 22, 2006 - 12:08am PT
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Steve Grossman posted:
"Sanitation crews are not necessarily in everybody's best interest especially if the goal is to accomodate people like Hummjob that want risk and adventure gone, if they had their way as stated. The dialog needs to start from the old school perspective because that view has integrity and does not become debased by idiosyncratic whining and shortcomings."
It's Hummerchine, wienerdude.
I never said I want risk and adventure gone.
As for integrity, perhaps you should read my last post again, and compare it to yours?
Who's whining?
Heh.
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
hummerchine
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 22, 2006 - 12:42am PT
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Werner wrote:
> No no no veeee must have controversy and chaos, without, it's too boring. hehehe
Kauk says add more protection bolts.
Don't-cha love it .......
Uh-oh, now this could get messy!
I recall this had been offered in the past, and I hope this is about more than Karl's postings about calling it a "death route", "elitist", etc. That hard first pitch seems like a perfect filter to make sure people who get onto the upper pitches with less pro are good enough to know what they are doing. With bomber replaced belay anchors, any long whippers that might still happen should be survivable. It just seems like added bolts could be a potential downgrade - if the upper pitches have protection bolts added, people who "need" them won't be able to get that high, and people who can get that high could be bummed that they don't get to share the memorable experiences which Kevin, Randy, Kurt, Duncan, Steve, etc. have all described.
Ron and Kevin can do what they want, if they come up with a specific plan on protection bolts to add. But they should make sure they really want to do it. It probably seems ironic, but people will complain no matter what is done or what is not done....
Space Babble shouldn't be thought of as being singled out for criticism because it has runouts and relatively few ascents. There are other hard routes like You Asked For It, Bachar-Yerian, and Southern Belle which see few ascents. Or how about something like Hoosier Highway on the Apron - full pitch runouts on 5.9 friction and one-bolt belays. It doesn't get much traffic, but I have never heard anyone complain about it - there are so many other routes to do if you want something "conventional". With Space Babble and other comparable routes, the quality and memorable experiences are there for people who can rise to meet the challenge. The routes can also be experienced indirectly by people who dream about doing them someday when they get good enough.
My advice, which is probably valueless, would be to make sure the anchors get replaced, and leave it alone for awhile (or climb it to see how it feels). If people whine that it's still a "death route" or something, advise them to get their training up to speed on other Middle Cathedral face climbs, or put up their own route in the protection style they prefer. If bumblies like myself can do new routes, really there are no excuses - find your own route and show us what you prefer in terms of fixed protection. It's not very fair to criticize other people's routes unless you put up your own and are willing to face the same type of criticism....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2006 - 01:22am PT
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Awe f'ck Kevin, you know Ron has a computer and he doesn't care about this supertopo bullshit here.
He was just saying he wouldn't care if it happened. Call him yourself and tell him to post up. It might be intresting to have him give a speil about what he thinks here.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2006 - 01:37am PT
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Sorry Kevin I don't have his phone number, like I use phones?
But I'll get it for you ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 22, 2006 - 05:14am PT
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Kauk told me years ago he didn't care if bolts were added but I'm not assuming he gave it long thought or would still feel that way. I had just mentioned that it was such a great route but nobody had done it in years.
Clint, I'm guessing there is one bolt that didn't get placed that makes the route a real risk to somebody who isn't headpointing it after rehearsal, (or isn't a major talent) and that's the 10c after a long run-out on pitch two. If I were Kevin or Ron, I'd probably have a little regret over that one bit of overboldness.
Nobody complains about Hoisers cause nobody does it or thinks about doing it. I bet it hasn't had an ascent in 25 years. I started up it a time or two ages ago but got screwed up because it's got a big long pitch that seems to make you simulclimb if you only have a 50 meter rope and that's all we had back 20 years ago. (or maybe I didn't realize one 1/4 bolt equaled a belay!)
The great thing about replacing the anchors on Babble is that mortals will be able to top-rop the route which is fun, and the studs can go have at (we'll see if they do or not, but after this thead, I wouldn't be surprised. be sure and bump this thing with some spray when the time comes.)
Peace
Karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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Karl, do you have any pictures of Hoosier's Highway or a tale to tell that might hook somebody's interest? Word of mouth or a forum thread is a great way to get folks inspired to have a look and perhaps tidy up a bit.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 23, 2006 - 10:29pm PT
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Hi Steve
I think there are other routes that might deserve work before anyone got around to Hoosier's. I'm away from "the office" who did the FA anyway?
I don't think I got beyond pitch 2 when I climbed up forever, clipped a 1/4 bolt (maybe) and climbed further until I ran out of rope on a blank face and had to downclimb and bail.
Folks that want to go play on a long Apron route should check out Galactic Hitchhiker. Goes to the rim. It's over-bolted in some places but you still have to make some 5.10 moves with an Alien 5-10 feet below.
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/Galactic_Hitchhiker.html
Lucifers to Oasis might be a good 5,9 if it weren't pure death (like having an anchor of one fixed angle before a pitch with zero pro)
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/LucifersLedgeSolo.html
Here's a good slab climb that has a balance of leadouts and good pro. Seemed overbolted when the first ascent went up but not anymore
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/Crest_Jewel_Direct.html
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dec 24, 2006 - 02:42am PT
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My partner and I did the 2nd ascent (whoopee!) of Hoosier's Highway. Here's the 411.....
We were students at UC Davis and were reading the current issue of Climbing where it menionted Hoosiers and how it had repulsed several attempts at a 2nd ascent by "very strong local climbers" or something like that. We were at the base, racking up for the climb, the very next morning.
It has been 30 years so the details are a bit sketchy; I led the crux pitch, it wasn't all that bad at about 5.10c. But, as Karl mentioned, the Climbing Magazine article failed to mention that the first ascent team had a number of single bolt (1/4" Rawls!!!!) belays.
Unfortunately, I discovered this the hard way! I had clipped a bolt and was about 20 feet above it when it was clear that I was going to run out of rope before getting to another bolt. I guess it was a bit of bravado that led me into the situation, but being the smart person that I am I figured out a really unique(!?!?) solution.
Back then the leader climber with both a lead and a trail line and luckily for me both there 11mm. I couldn't downclimb those twenty feet and I could see another bolt 25-30' above me so I just tied the 11mm trail line into the lead line and headed for the bolt.
Maybe those of you with an IQ in triple digits could figure out that I only needed to add 30 or 40 feet of the trail line to the lead line to reach the bolt, but.... I tied the whole 165' of the trail line into the lead line which meant if I slipped I could fall somehwere in the neigborhood of 200'. Thankfully the moves were only in the 5.9 range and I reached the bolt in one piece.
After that we just made sure to keep a couple of bolts between us on all the pitches which was a bit difficult when you are swinging leads! Thank heavens for the trail line!
Man, we(well, at least me!) do some stupid things sometimes. Hopefully we learn from them!
Bruce
ps - Colorado climbers Steve Shea, Lou Dawson, Molly Higgins, and Larry Bruce. We just had to restore the rep of the locals! Also, you would have thought that with all the people somebody could have carried a few more bolts.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dec 24, 2006 - 02:57am PT
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Karl mentioned Lucifer to the Oasis. Yeah, that has some pretty runout climbing up high. I lead one pitch that was about 5.9 with the hard move about 70' out from the belay. At the top of the pitch all I could get in was one of the old Forrest Foxheads about the width of a couple of dimes. I think my partner had a number 4 or 5 Chouinard stopper in for the next belay. Also, the belay at the end of the 1st pitch (the traverse) was a single quarter inch bolt.
We did the route in November and topped out just as it got dark. Luckily we had done the Coonyard rappels once before and did all 10 rappels in 1 hour to the ground. Nothing like looking for anchors in the dark!
Bruce
edit - "70' out from the belay" should be "70' out from the belay with no pro". Maybe that was obvious from the wording.....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 24, 2006 - 06:46pm PT
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" Lucifer to the Oasis"
The first time I did the route, I got off onto blank stone off to the right about 60 feet with no pro before i realized the route went left with no pro. I had to downclimb the whole way and start over. It was beyond nerve-wracking and I think my GATT (Girlfriend At The Time) was belaying me.
Naturally, it was years before I forgot how nasty that was before I somehow thought I should go solo that thing.
Peace
Karl
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