Vigilante censor, Mark Winans, seeks to shut down Forum

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anita514

Gym climber

Great White North

Jul 28, 2015 - 02:03pm PT

I'm sorry.
I knew my selfies thread was contributing to the demise of SuperTopo but I never knew it would go this far.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 28, 2015 - 02:14pm PT

I skimmed and counted, just out of curiosity, make it six, lol!!

michael feldman

Mountain climber

Jul 28, 2015 - 02:36pm PT

Hey Chris,

As an attorney and a climber, I think this (what Winans is apparently doing based upon your description) is pretty outrageous. First, in the "Forum Tips," SuperTopo sets forth its policy. If Winans has a problem with a particular post, he should have followed your policy and then you could decide whether there was a particular action that should be taken. His failure to do so is, itself, a breach of SuperTopo's policies.

Second, SuperTopo has no obligation to read and monitor every posting to determine if something said is offensive to someone. Indeed, I am pretty sure that there are a ton of posts that are offensive to someone (i.e., a gym-only climber being offended by someone saying that is not real climbing, etc.). While it would be nice for people to all just get along, you cannot prevent people from being offended - though your policy sets forth a procedure to try to deal with the most offensive postings. That being said, I would bet that at least 99% of everything that goes on in the Forum is not truly offensive in the sense that it would upset any advertisers.

Third, Winans appears to be engaged in defamation AND tortious interference with contract/business advantage (legal stuff). While the truth may be a defense to defamation, it appears that the claim that SuperTopo is engaged in making offensive statements is not true. Rather, his own allegations appear to be that a third-party (not SuperTopo) is making statements that Winans believes are offensive and those statements appear on SuperTopo's forum (and are not removed because Winans has refused to follow SuperTopo's policy). There is a huge difference here. Nobody is accusing the NY Times, CNN, the WSJ or any other news organizations of making offensive comments because they publish comments made by Trump or Huckabee or Hezbollah or North Korea, etc. Winans appears to be engaged in tortious interference because he is knowingly and intentionally trying to interfere with SuperTopo's relationships with its advertisers. Indeed, that appears to be his stated intent.

Fourth, while a lawsuit may solve some problems, it could be expensive and it may be difficult to identify who Winans actually is. On the other hand, preparing a detailed letter explaining all of this to all of your advertisers in advance may stem some of the potential damage. I would think that any credible advertiser would not be put off by what is actually going on here - as opposed to their initial view of things when they receive a letter or e-mail from Winans. Maybe it is time to take the initiative so the first thing your advertisers see is the truth, so they have the correct perspective when/if they receive any letter from Winans.

That's my 2 cents.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jul 28, 2015 - 02:47pm PT

Michael, if that's your two cents, we need to talk about raising your hourly rate!

John

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jul 28, 2015 - 02:48pm PT

Only on SuperTopo would a non-lawyer lecture a lawyer about the law. LOL!

squishy

Mountain climber

Jul 28, 2015 - 03:03pm PT

Same place a carpenter fancies himself an expert in modern day military aviation.

LOL, even the military aviation experts have something to be desired..

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/everything-wrong-with-the-f-35-3b62e8b3b432

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Jul 28, 2015 - 03:38pm PT

Lawyer guy, you might want to re-read what this Winans guy actually wrote. You have misconstrued it, it is very clear that he singles out the members of the forum.

headupyourazz, you might want to do some rereading of your own. "Lawyer guy" is spot on regarding "Mark's" intention, tactics, and defamation. He's also spot on regarding the fact that a suit would be well-grounded, assuming that this goofball can be outed.

Almost as bad as the philosopher guy, but at least your walls of text are 400 words instead of 12,000.

Here's my four letters: ROFL!

Don't be envious because you're not capable of putting up anything but flimsy, broke-back shacks of text. Nobody thinks any less of you. I know it's not possible for me to.

michael feldman

Mountain climber

Jul 28, 2015 - 03:42pm PT

Elcap, your point is well taken (though I have never been laughed out of court, nor will I). However, the ultimate points remain the same. SuperTopo has a policy to try to prevent offensive postings. Thus, SuperTopo does not "give its members a vehicle to express what can only be described as disgusting hate speech." Indeed, SuperTopo does the opposite, in practice and in its policy, and ironically, with the very poster Winans seems to be complaining about. Winans also misleads when he states that SuperTopo's "members promote violence against other Americans." I do not believe SuperTopo has members. More importantly, Winans specifically points to a sole (now banned) poster on the SuperTopo website. He/she knows that the letter to the advertiser is thus false and misleading.

Everyone is entitled to his/her point of view, but let's not kid ourselves into ever believing that Winans is trying to prevent discrimination or offensive comments by what he/she is doing. Winans is trying to damage SuperTopo. For all we know, Winans IS Ron Anderson.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jul 28, 2015 - 03:45pm PT

ElCap,
Perhaps you missed a couple of subtle differences.
You lectured the lawyer. I offer my opinions.

I'd be happy to compare my military service and
aviation licenses and endorsements to yours any time. I guarantee I could
make you throw up within 2 minutes if you want to spring for some aerobatic
time. ;-)

skcreidc

Social climber

SD, CA

Jul 28, 2015 - 03:49pm PT

Michael

More importantly, Winans specifically points to a sole (now banned) poster on the SuperTopo website. He/she knows that the letter to the advertiser is thus false and misleading.

I believe Ron Anderson is currently posting as Rdog and most know it. Certainly not a secret.

edit; I think that is who you referring to..

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Jul 28, 2015 - 04:09pm PT

El Cap.... having another bad day??

Boltguy? GFYS, clown.

your are one of the first to come out all hateful....

atchafalaya

Boulder climber

Jul 28, 2015 - 04:12pm PT

"though I have never been laughed out of court, nor will I"

Is that because you didn't hear what happened after you exited the courtroom, or because you practice transactional work?

Both would explain your analysis of Winan's email.

crankster

Trad climber

No. Tahoe

Jul 28, 2015 - 04:15pm PT

Jul 28, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
Looks like you got what you wanted Mark. Well played sir....but what will you whine about now???? One thing for sure, it won't involve climbing content

Too funny. Deputy Potatohead drops in and solves the case!

PS: try paying attention. Ron's posts were deleted along with his former account before this Mark Winans appeared. Back to desk duty there, Barney Fife.

mynameismud

climber

backseat

Jul 28, 2015 - 04:21pm PT

I do not really agree with a person going to advertiser and threatening boycotts. However, I do find it amusing that the person can back it up with example posts. I also find it very amusing that one person mentions that he has not seen any examples of Ron Anderson threatening Americans but then goes on to say he has said stuff about Muslims... Ah, perhaps think about that a minute or two.

I do not spend a ton of time on here and actually spend less all time. Partly because of how strident some of the posts are. I just did not realize how prejudiced some of the users are. I do very much agree with the person that said Supertopo is a product and if you want to take it to the next level then moderation (something I really do not like) may need to be considered. Supertopo is supported by advertisers and I have a hard time believing the advertisers support or condone some of the more hard line posts that go on here.

There comes a time when you have to decide on whether you want to be a bush league site or if you want to be a business. If you want to be bush league than do not worry about the advertisers and let everyone do what they want. If you want to be a business you will probably has to have some folks tone it down a bit. It is rather obvious from following the forum the last few years some folks are unable to moderate themselves.

Here's to sweat in your eye.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Jul 28, 2015 - 04:32pm PT

Mr. Mud just put this issue to bed.

Bravo

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Jul 28, 2015 - 04:38pm PT

Then, when corrected, incredibly leaves it up

Yup, because I don't delete posts or edit them without noting it. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I don't hide.

BTW, I won't shorten your handle to "El Cap" like some others here. I have respect for El Cap, and your handle itself is offensive and is so by design. If that's your level, then "headupyoazz" is the appropriate reworking of it, not "El Cap."

Don't get mad, lol... just get your head out....