Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
|
Medical privacy laws assured that no one was allowed to know dude felt like killing himself.
Mental problems should be on a publically searchable database. If someone's depressed, or *hearing voices*, or some sh#t, I want to know about it before I make the mistake of selling him a gun, or hiring that person to do anything important.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
|
We are talking about specific drugs prescribed to particular people.
Millions of people depend upon these substances for daily functioning.
Society has to ask itself if the price of a mass killing from time to time is worth it.
For certain individuals these drugs turn off the ability to emotionally process what is going on around them. These medications shut down regions of the brain involved with empathy and the normal range of emotions.
This is why that co-pilot could watch his victims boarding the plane and not feel anything.
Precisely why psychopaths/sociopaths feel no empathy for others.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
|
Society has to ask itself if the price of a mass killing from time to time is worth it.
The next psych med mass killing will likely again be be in a public place like a school or a shopping mall where it is next to impossible.
This implies that there has been some causal relationship established between drugs and mass killings, which there hasn't.
Being established in one person's mind (yours) doesn't count.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
|
Hey, zBrown, it's merely a coincidence that nearly every mass killer in over the last couple of decades were on psych meds?
Again, most individuals taking these drugs do not become mass killers. But some do.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
|
Sounds like you could use some, Ward.
Typical myth promulgation -
Psych drugs cause patients to go INSANE!!!! Let's not consider that fact that those patients are taking them because...um...they are already insane.
But WAIT. I KNOW a guy who...no, actually, you don't. You're lying for status - an unfortunately common human trait, particularly on forums. Certainly more common than DRUGS CAUSED THAT MASS MURDER - which would be pretty much never.
Anti depressants cause SUICIDE!!! (I leave that to you Einsteins to figure this second conundrum out).
Drugs cause PSYCHOPATHY!!!! Or they CURE IT!!! Or something like that!!!!
This kind of stupid shite invariably surfaces any time there's a mass killing. Repetition makes it TRUE.
Perhaps more medication is warranted. A healthy dose of STFU can do wonders for the average moron, although this crop here is most definitely above average in that regard.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
|
Tvash: I'm not saying you personally should stop taking your medicine. Don't overreact.
Look, we are beginning to understand that some of these substances are extremely crude ways to modulate human behavior, and next to impossible to predict who among the millions being prescribed them will shoot up a school or fly a plane into a mountain.
Psych drugs cause patients to go INSANE!!!! Let's not consider that fact that those patients are taking them because...um...they are already insane.
Wrong. The overwhelming number of people taking these meds suffer from various degrees of debilitating depression. Depression does not equal "insane" and it's sufferers do not normally lose complete contact with reality, as you would expect from what is thought of as psychosis.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
|
Medical privacy laws assured that no one was allowed to know dude felt like killing himself.
Mental problems should be on a publically searchable database. If someone's depressed, or *hearing voices*, or some sh#t, I want to know about it before I make the mistake of selling him a gun, or hiring that person to do anything important.
Doing so would be a double edged sword.
If you are having a hard time after a break-up and you seek help, should the world know this? On one hand yes, we would like to keep folks who are compromised out of the captain's chair. On the other hand no, if someone stands to lose their job and livelihood if they seek help they simply won't seek help. We will likely be much worse off if nobody is willing to seek help. Unless full public mental health disclosure came with a guaranteed continuation of full salary, somehow, I don't see how you will have a system that won't result in the mentally sick going further underground rather than seeking help.
On the whole I would argue that the pharmaceutical side of mental health is overdue for some deep scrutiny. Talk therapy appears to have some real value to many folks. The drug side scares the crap out of me. There is too much $$$ involved with companies that have been shown too often to warp science in their favor.
|
|
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
|
Society has to ask itself if the price of a mass killing from time to time is worth it.
and in broad view, the answer is yes, the price of a mass killing is "worth" the benefit of having hundreds of thousands of individuals function, knowing that they are networked into communities (families, friends, workplaces, etc.)
that said, this fellow could have his meds while not being a pilot of a carrier jet. He could have been a librarian or retail clerk or whatever, and would still have had the opportunity to kill people as a librarian/retail clerk/whatever, but it would have been far, far less convenient, and the purpose of regulation isn't to make mass killings impossible, but less probable.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:05pm PT
|
No one ultimately really knows if Andreas Lubitz actually did what everyone is guessing he did ......
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
|
Not to let facts get in the way, but 'death by psychotic' is fantastically rare, where as 'death by drunk' is unfortunately not.
To any of you who drink and drive, or drink to excess - ever - and you know who you are: you are far, far more likely to kill someone than 'a crazy'.
Once a month I have dinner with anywhere from 2 to 6 'crazies' at a local shelter. The end game of the program, aside from providing food and shelter, is to provide conversation so that these folks can navigate the public housing system and get out of the elements.
Typically, these people are challenged by addiction, depression, and mental illness - some more severely than others. These are terrible afflictions, and medication helps many of these people live better lives.
As this thread so clearly illustrates, the general public knows little to nothing about these people - they are invisible. When I see the ignorance exhibited here, I think "Wow - I'd love to get these folks to participate in this forum with some first hand experience", but their internet access is spotty, to say the least. It wouldn't be good for them anyway - they get beat up enough just trying to survive.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
|
He was truly a sick man if he saw all of those people board that he intended to kill.
But if he didn't happen to greet them, maybe he wasn't "truly a sick man?"
Sheesh.
|
|
SweetWilliam
Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
|
Ward says that "he next psych med mass killing will likely again be be in a public place "
Dont most mass killings happen in public places? Where else could they be you dont have fifty people in your bathroom. thanks there captain obvious.
Cmon wbran the shadow knows.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
|
I'd rather know if someone's an as#@&%e - like the person who suggested depression should be a matter of public knowledge - and deny them a gun. I think 'as#@&%e' and 'killing' are more highly correlated.
No worries, Ward. I await a post where you actually know what you're talking about.
Hope springs eternal.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:24pm PT
|
"SweetWilliam" you must know what I meant by "public place" . A privately run Airbus is an enclosed container normally travelling at thousands of feet. No one can just walk into the door from the outside and just start shooting the place up, unlike a mall or a school.
That's what I meant by "public place" in the context I used it, as a place normally available to the general public--not screened passengers and crews in a private airline thousands of feet in the air.
As this thread so clearly illustrates, the general public knows little to nothing about these people - they are invisible. When I see the ignorance exhibited here, I think "Wow - I'd love to get these folks to participate in this forum with some first hand experience", but their internet access is spotty, to say the least. It wouldn't be good for them anyway - they get beat up enough just trying to survive.
Oh Geez. Dial it back just a taste, Mother Teresa
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
|
If you are having a hard time after a break-up and you seek help, should the world know this? On one hand yes, we would like to keep folks who are compromised out of the captain's chair. On the other hand no, if someone stands to lose their job and livelihood if they seek help they simply won't seek help. We will likely be much worse off if nobody is willing to seek help. Unless full public mental health disclosure came with a guaranteed continuation of full salary, somehow, I don't see how you will have a system that won't result in the mentally sick going further underground.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
|
Hey, zBrown, it's merely a coincidence that nearly every mass killer in over the last couple of decades were on psych meds?
Just how did you come to this conclusion Ward? When you make outrageous claims you have to provide evidence that supports them.
You haven't.
Additionally you have not stated just what a psych med is? Coffee, marijuana, alcohol, Levothyroxine, Levitra, Aspirin ...? If you don't know the drill by now, maybe you never will.
Nearly every person that has been killed in an automobile accident was in one when he/she was killed. Have I provided any evidence? No, but the claim is not nearly as far-fetched as yours.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:39pm PT
|
"As this thread so clearly illustrates" What??? You think this forum represents an accurate cross
section of the general public? The men of Supertopo??
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
|
ZBrown:
I don't have the time to fetch an exhaustive list for you ---but here is one of the short lists:
http://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/
And I'll say this again, most individuals on these medications do not commit mass murder. But some do.
Society has to face the fact that for every million or so people marginally helped by these drugs there are an unfortunate few who go "postal".
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
|
hey there say, ... i don't really join-in, these kind of discussions, as, it is too complex for me, however, i did (as you can see) stop by to see why this has grown so much...
well, not sure if this link, may be of interest to anyone but:
with all the talk, as to mental health, and medicines, etc, and reactions, and affects on the brain, etc... i was curious about a few things...
mainly, due to this:
very very many folks at the epilepsy sites, have shared this:
the NEW meds for their kids, are affecting many of them, as to violent and strange behavior, WHICH the children did NOT have, before talking the drugs... on the other hand, many other folks had come forth sharing that the old drugs, seemed to have been a lot safer, as to affecting behavior, however, they were more 'sedative' type, but, it all leads one to think:
the brain is PERHAPS being 'seriously compromised' for a 'seemingly' faster, better 'fix' as to WHATEVER THE ailment--whether seizures, in their case, or mental-issues, in these cases of those using pshych drugs...
it IS much harder, to go the slower, long route, as to any illness, or condition (WITH what?? the older less strong?? drugs), and yes, you may 'lose productivity time' (for those that work, this is 'a no no' as to bills, income, etc, as many have come to know) BUT:
it seems it may be better, as to retaining the very person, that you love, or for the individual, going through things--retaining his own life... and for the community, keeping dangerous situations, much lower, and less violent... ?
everthing, seems very intense and complex, the more folks try for cures, without considering the 'backfire' factors, :(
well, here is the link:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/timeline/timeline2.html
the only 'big thought' as to all this, is there seems to be a
CHANGE in the 1990's, the TIMELINE shares...
me, i have no more clue, or ideas, to share... just hoped that the
TIME LINE might be of interest to someone...
and, my deep deep condolences to all concerned, and their familes as to this terrible tragedy, of all these folks that were killed...
it just could be, that medicines are making a hard dangerous 'left turn' into the 'vast' unknown 'leftfield' here, dealing with the brain... :(
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
|
chistian suicide terrorist?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!