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Murf
climber
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Mar 15, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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Do you people climb at the same Joshua Tree that I do?
Every day out this year I've climbed new routes (new for me at least).
Every day out this year I've had a crag to myself.
Every day out this year I've climbed a route put up in the last decade (some the same week) that was very worthy .
Every day out this year I saw new(ish) climbers who were competent.
On no day out this year did I share a crag with someone I didn't want to.
On no day out this year did I see a chipped hold.
On no day out this year did I take a dump on Headstone.
I was only runout when I had decided to be challenged in that way, and that rarely. My point being that there are tons of well protected routes at all grades.
Granted that was only about 10 days total all on weekends, but still...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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While I'd rather this thread fade into the sunset, there is so much misinformation being posted, that I feel compelled to address some of it.
First, the commentary by people who don't even climb at Josh, nor have any idea what is going on, is so far off the mark that it would laughable if this were a laughing matter. [E.g., you don't see me opining about Woodfords Canyon.]
Second, the impacts that precipitated this thread by Bernadette were not perpetrated by newly minted sport climbers. These people have been around for decades.
Third, there is tons of potential for both new cracks and face climbs in the Park. The idea that a new crack route is less impactive than a new face climb is utter non-sense and not only unsupported by any actual data, but contrary to the one study actually conducted.
As an environmental matter, there are four potential areas of impact caused by climbers climbing a particular route:
1. Impacts resulting from the travel to the crag (informal vs. formal trails, and trail braiding). These impact plants and animals in a variety of ways.
2. Impacts at the base of the climb/crag. Depending on: (a) The type of surface along the base (rocks/boulders) or sensitive soils and plant communities, and (b) the amount of traffic: Impacts may be anything from non-existent to significant.
3. Impacts on the route.
A. On a crack, there may be plants and/or animals living in the crack (or there may be neither). Plants are most affected and the impact to animals is variable.
B. On a face, there may be small spiders, lichen and other such life behind flakes and on the face proper. At Josh, in most cases, the face is largely barren of in-situ life. Impacts tend to be minor or non-existent. To the extent that bolts are used as fixed protection, there is a very minor physical impact (which could be largely remediated if desired), and a visual impact (which can be largely remediated through use of painted and/or naturally colored hangers).
C. Chalk use. Chalk is a visible impact on both cracks and face climbs, but is as a general rule much more noticeable on face climbs. In most cases, chalk washes off non-overhanging routes.
4. Impacts on Descents.
A. Downclimbs. Sometimes a descent involves down-climbing rock and has little additional impacts. Many times there is some additional impacts resulting from a downclimb (even if limited to only the base area).
B. Rappels. Rappels down the route tend to have little impact on plant and animal communities at Josh (unless rappeling off trees or bushes). But, they then usually require some manner of fixed anchor which does result in an additional impact related to the fixed anchor.
It is my opinion, but one based upon facts -- rather than on a personal preference for either cracks or face climbing (I like both) -- that crack climbing has far greater potential for impacting plant and animal communities than face climbing.
Edited to ADD:
Factors Leading to Route Visitation. (1)It seems that distance from the road is the single most important factor in determining a route's popularity. (2) The second is the technical grade (moderate routes attract the overwhelming majority of aspirants). (3) The perceived quality of a route is a far, far, far distant third.
The fact remains that in Joshua Tree Wilderness, 90% of all climbers climb the same 5% of the routes (actually less than 5%).
The long and short of this is that climbers (and people) who profess to be anti-bolt in the name of impact control, may find that their arguments have little real world support. But, like anything, it depends.
Just like politics and religion, "beliefs" are often more powerful than fact. With climber impacts and resource protection, beliefs [EDITED TO ADD: or "personal preferences"] should have little place in the discussion.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Don't forget the impact on the planet of driving there.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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MH,
Yes, human waste, garbage and just being in the proximity of some animals can cause impacts. Though these types of impacts are implicit in what I said, perhaps I should have mentioned them specifically.
Still, whether I sh!t or P on the way, at the base, or on top, of a face or crack route is the same impact. Same with trash and disturbing wildlife.
Most significantly, these types of impacts are the same whether I'm hiking, bird watching, or engaging in some other use of the outdoors. As such, it is misleading to emphasize those issues when specifically discussing "climbing impacts."
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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Lots of us know Khnom, Coz, you need to get out more.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
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Khanom, Yes, bolts can cause a visual (and physical) impact. But, a properly camouflaged bolt and hanger is essentially invisible to any observer (sometimes to climbers). Chalk is far more visibly intrusive, even if often seasonal.
Bolts often are more of an existential problem than a real resource impact problem per se.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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Am I the only one that finds it a tad disrespectful to start a thread as a government rep, throw out some veiled threats in that thread, and then refuse to engage in the conversation you started?
Or am I just missing the further contributions from Bernadette?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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The OP wasn't about a random new bolted line. It was about steps hammered into 5.6 terrain to access the "real" climbing, rock furniture, fire rings and what in all probability was an "improved" long term campsite deep in the wilderness.
It has sparked a good discussion on overall impact though.
In the 40+ years I've been climbing there, the most obvious impacts are the now numerous approach trails and microtrash.
It seems like the biggest impact is from just getting to the crags.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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Or am I just missing the further contributions from Bernadette?
Yup
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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perhaps part of the josh dilemma lies between the ears of male climbers.
a famous female climber once remarked, to the effect, that guys tromping every last bit of stony countryside to "put up" routes was the equivalent of marking territory, "like dogs peeing".
get yerself a good hypnotist. teach yourself to think like god. meister eckhardt: "to god, all things are new". that way you can walk up to a rock, and it'll actually be the first time it was ever climbed, thanks to your self-hypnosis. you won't be fitting yourself into the subjugation you imagine towards the FA demigod and everyone else who has climbed the sucker since.
when i started guiding at josh last year, the report was that there were 4,000 climbs. by the end of the year, the report had gone up to 8,000. if you go by the reports on this thread, it's gone from 8,000 to 10,000 since the thread was first posted. a crisis indeed!
try this one for size. hike into the heart of the wonderland of rocks. or hike into a side canyon of the sierra nevada. climb something, if you have basic trad skills. don't name it. don't tell anyone else about it. don't even go back to it, 'cause probably no one else ever will.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 15, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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maybe respected...
Then again, maybe not.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 15, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
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she came back to explain why she couldn't say more. Coupla pages back
Gotcha, I missed it.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 15, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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Let's see what's on TV.......so go the fridge, get yourself a beer or 6, sit down, turn on the tube, and let's give it a rest here;....I believe it's time to move on......(Good post, Murf)........go fix a sandwich too.....and move along;....have you seen the Why Are Republicans Always Wrong Thread lately?.....it's really cool....
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 15, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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While I'd rather this thread fade into the sunset, there is so much misinformation being posted, that I feel compelled to address some of it.
Thanks Randy, I've felt the same way about this thread. It's all over the map on an important issue and I was going to try to inject some perspective and realism, being a JT climber with a history that runs from the bitd era of the early's 70's -- and damn, that was a great time -- right through to today.
I also -- being a 25 year career NPS operative with a pretty solid background on where the agency stands, vis-a-vis climbing management -- know the implications of this rather trivial (in the big scheme of things) situation and it's ability to effect large-sale changes in park climbing managemet policy.
You have very effectively articulated most of the points I would have made.
I would also add that nothing short of some deranged climbers drilling and dynamiting every formation in hidden valley down to rubble would ever result in a wholesale ban on climbing in the monument.
I'd also add that Josh has always been, and always will be, a far more significant natural feature of our glorious little planet than it will ever be as a climbing area. My most transendental moments in Josh occured while the rack and rope were packed safely away, and I was just drinking in the mind-mending vibe of the place with close friends, and some minor chemical chakra enhancers.
Just my .2 cents.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 15, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
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Joshua Tree needs supporters like Bernadette.
It has been an important part of my life and I am grateful for this.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 15, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
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Well, he is obviously jealous of my climbing ability,
As a matter of fact Khanom is entirely adapted to the climbing he does. As you would expect for someone who climbs a lot.
While his being jealous might occur to someone who does not know him it does not occur to me. There is another possible explanation for his comment. That reason may be more related to yourself. Here, I don't know you, so I have no way of knowing.
I think we need to focus on an open question of great importance. How are we to preserve our national heritage?
Edit:
+1 fpr Pud and BVB nails it.
Climbing is just a small part of what JTNP offers us. The NPS knows that. Climbers need to agree on this - before it is gone.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 15, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
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Hey Pud, great shot of the Split Rocks area.
Looks like you are on top of Overbolted Rock -- ironic?
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 15, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
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Second, the impacts that precipitated this thread by Bernadette were not perpetrated by newly minted sport climbers. These people have been around for decades.
That's very disturbing. I considered Joshua Tree a special place even before I started climbing. It's a wonderful experience to climb a formation there, and then drink in the view from the top.
Purposely defiling it is criminal in many ways.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Mar 16, 2012 - 02:08am PT
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One of the reasons for less well protected bolt routes (in addition to where the stances were) was the desire to minimize how many bolts were placed. One used to pay the dues, earn the experience and confidence, then try to push it as far as possible before drilling. And then try to do even better next time. Less was desirable because it was purer and had less impact. It was/is more than ego.
Ironic, run it and people call you whacko, selfish, a resource abuser (exclusionary). Protect that route well so that the nominal climber at the route grade can be completely safe and people call you a "sport" climber, one dimensional, a resource abuser (overuse). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Banning all bolts for face climbing would completely eliminate an entire dimension of climbing, one that has a long and rich history. A bad thing for those many people who do enjoy or prefer face climbing. But lest this comment be misinterpreted, out of control bolting is also a bad thing. There is a middle ground, bolting can be done responsibly.
I, like some others, wouldn't mind this thread fading away. Not because the issues shouldn't be discussed - chipping, chopping steps, destroying vegetation needs to be called out - but rather because some of the comments are not correct, nor are they constructive.
Bringing tangent extremes to this thread, when it may be (ok, is) watched, may not be the best idea. Leave the bias and predjudice behind as much as possible if something needs to be said.
We all disapprove of the environmental damage called out in the OP. We don't all agree about bolts being good/bad or where they cross the line from one side to the other. Throwing each other under the bus because of those disagreements may be a bad thing, as we'll all end up getting run over.
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