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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 22, 2011 - 10:54am PT
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If Bachar died soloing a 5.15 he'd never seen before while hamming it up for the camera, all as a 5.12/13 climber, we'd be calling him an idiot.
Before Skinner's death, it was considered cool to pose around in your sun bleached harness from the 80's. Harneses didn't fail. It took the experts weeks to come up with a reason for the belay loop failing, and even then, that conclusion is questionable as to this day the failure mode has not been reproduced.
Though risky, both were well informed experts making reasonable decisions for themselves based on a sh#t ton of experience. I see absolutely no valid comaprison here to a couple of 21 yr old tourons acting like jackasses
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:23am PT
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If this was thread about Bachar decking
It's not a thread about Bachar decking.
It's about being totally stupid.
Go up there Karl and really look at what happened and how many people warned them NOT to try to go where they wanted all while disregarding the dangers.
We do stupid things in our lives at times.
Some of you just can't seem to swallow the word stupid ......
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:44am PT
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Niagra Falls: 167 ft. tall
Vernal Falls: 318 ft. tall
A falling body/object accelerates at an exponential rate of g = 9.8 m/s squared until it reaches terminal velocity.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:45am PT
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Welcome to human nature, eh?
Some of you just can't seem to swallow the word stupid...
I mean, if you know of a slow child, an underperforming child, is it okay or not okay to call him retarded?
Half say yes, half say no.
It's crimson tide again: "Two schools of thought here."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:54am PT
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As experienced climbers I think we can judge danger better than the average person.
The park tries to educate tourists with signs but it is so little and the signs often don't differentiate between slight danger and high danger. People are so used to seeing signs everywhere they don't stop to think of the level of danger. In this case people also swim well above the falls, there are signs prohibiting it upstream, but lots of people do it, because it isn't nearly as dangerous as swimming right above the falls. So people see others ignoring the signs upstream and think it's the same downstream right above the falls. I'm not saying that's what happeneded in this case, but it's a good example of what I'm trying to explain.
I've seen other signs (at the top of yosemite falls) saying how many people have died there. Is there one like that at Vernal? There should be a sign on that rail saying "12 people have died after wading in the water at this spot. The rocks are very slippery. Stay out or you could be death 13". And have the 12 and 13 stickers so people can see people are still being killed.
I would NEVER get in the water 25 feet above a waterfall. When I learned to lead I asked my mentor how often should I place pro (thinking it was X number of feet) and was told if you look down and imagine falling where would the last piece you placed stop you? if that failed then how far would you go? is it a clean fall or would you hit a ledge? etc. Getting into the water 25 feet above the falls probably means they never stopped to think, what if I slipped?
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Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
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Some of you just can't seem to swallow the word stupid ......
A harsh reality for some maybe but true. Anyone who has been up or down the Mist Trail knows that there are a number of areas where one could slip or fall and even get off the trail but here we have a spot on the trail where there is a railing for a good reason and someone purposely goes over it. Not a smart move. My sympathy to the families involved. Loss of life no matter how it happens is not an easy thing to deal with but common sense and good judgement was not used in this case.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
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Young men are genetically programmed to perform bold, dangerous, difficult, acts to impress the young women with their bravery and skill. This instinctual response often overrides their intelligence.
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pa
climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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" In the domain of intelligence, the virtue of humbleness is none other then the power of attention".
Simone Weil
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ec
climber
ca
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
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A bright and young high school student from Marin died in a car accident on Tioga Road earlier this week. Take a moment to mourn for her and remember to drive safely in the mountains. Too bad this news is being overshadowed by the acts of these three senseless idiots.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
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If you never did anything stupid when you were in your teens and early twenties, you may throw the first stone.
The only reason most of us are alive and able to post on this thread is not that we exercised good judgment our whole lives--its because we were lucky enough to survive our indiscretions.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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It was a dumb thing to do. In fact incredibly ignorant, if not stupid.
3 people are dead. Call the act stupid, but do you really need to call the people stupid? We try to remember that this is a public forum. Would you walk up to the mother and say.." I'm sorry, but your daughter was stupid" ? No.. we would say that it is a very dangerous place, and let her draw her own conclusion.
How many times have we had threads about people dying, only to have the parents or family show up here?
I can understand when a rescue worker needs to get it out of their system out of frustration. They are directly involved and have to deal with this stuff daily. I feel frustration too, that people are willing to do something even when told of the dangers. But does that mean its okay for me to call them stupid? I also understood the point TGT was trying to make. Smart people do stupid things. Does that really mean they are stupid? There is a difference between saying something was stupid to do, and saying that the person is stupid. Its a subtle difference, but important one when considering that the parents may read this thread. If one careless act makes a person stupid, then we are all probably stupid.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
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It's not a thread about Bachar decking.
It's about being totally stupid.
Go up there Karl and really look at what happened and how many people warned them NOT to try to go where they wanted all while disregarding the dangers.
We do stupid things in our lives at times.
Some of you just can't seem to swallow the word stupid ......
yes, it was not a safe location for anyone and these souls paid with their life....now, was Bachar smart for soloing alone when he was decidedly older? what were the odds? how about skinner climbing in an old harness, how bright is that???? and rob slater on K@ "its gonna be the mountain or me!" as his team when departing told him he was gonna die.
i am not baggin on these guys but an outsider could call each one of the above esteemed climbers stupiud for thier actions...but that doesnt really help anything now does it?
leave the stupid comments out of it and have some sympathy for their loved ones...
ps - todd gordon yesterday posted about a friend base jumping off the eiger who died...and while i can sit on my ass in my office and think what did the guy expect? it really doesnt help matters...compassion people.
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James Doty
Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
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It makes me shudder, that inevitable pull towards the brink, clinging together in that final embrace. Outcome unstoppable.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
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Graniteclimber makes a valid point.
We are all on seperate journeys, have differing levels of awareness and opinions of what is right and wrong.
Calling these victims names for what they did to cause thier demise creates little value, other than to identify the less fortunate members here on ST.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
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It makes me shudder, that inevitable pull towards the brink, clinging together in that final embrace. Outcome unstoppable.
It is chilling. The outcome is inevitable and unstoppable for us all, which can be a chilling thought too if you get into the right (or wrong) headspace. But death in the indeterminate, hopefully far-off, future is not quite the same thing.
Agree with everyone who rightfully castigates the few jerks who feel a need to call the decedents "idiots," even though we all agree it was a very foolish thing they did.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
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Silver would you show the same disdain for those who shot me down when I suggested that the NPS soft peddled the danger?
Certainly those close to the victims are grieved but they don't hang around on ST, but there are issues of responsibility that affect us all here.
When people behave in foolish ways there are often enough repercussions.
The more we endorse the rationale for a nanny state the more climbing freedom is threatened.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
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When you are in a group walking distances you are not use to with kids??? Do you pay attention to the signs or are busy keeping track of where everyone is at? Please have some empathy!!!
This was a tragic accident not an I.Q. test. The main lesson I've learned so far in this life is that no one is immune from such ridicules obvious mistakes... No one.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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because we were lucky enough to survive our indiscretions. We all did plenty of stupid things, especially as a bunch of climbers. However, as soon as you bring up "luck", you really need to take a solid look at the probabilites. I have most definitely never taken a risk like that.
That video above - looks like the water has gone down some since I was there in June, near the high water mark for the Merced. Oh yeah - jump on in - the water is fine!
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