Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Imagine! Them... THINKING! The nerve of those children!
It's not that they're thinking, it's what they're thinking - that what they do in a gym is what climbing 'is' - and when they go outside they're simply doing a emulation of that whether bolts or gear. Again, it's a lowest common denominator homogenization of climbing. The very term 'climbing' has already been co-opted and relegated to 'trad climbing', and now that sprad climbing is the norm it looks like 'trad climbing' is now being co-opted to simply mean sport climbing on gear and what was climbing either simply lost or further relegated into the shadows as 'adventure climbing'.
I get it that accidents, kids, work, disease, addictions, aging, lack of will, lack of interest, or combinations of the above cause most folks to lay it all down and go along to get along and join in the risk-free bandwagon, cool, but what is collectively lost in the process and will be lost in the future is both significant and substantial. My father started flying in biplanes and ended his career in 747s, he used to tell stories about what it was like to be a pilot and fly prior to the FAA and federal regulations - never really got it at the time, but now I do. Again, glad I started climbing when I did.
So are aid climbers sprad or do you have a better name for the kids who aid climb these days? No way they could be anywhere near your level of aid so hopefully you have another condescending name for them.
WTF are you talking about and what does aid climbing have to do with any aspect of this conversation? I mean, I'm sorry, but has aid climbing changed substantially in the past thirty years? Or did I miss something?
You may feel like 'sprad climbing' is condescending, but it's not - it just accurately describes what's happening.
|
|
this just in
climber
north fork
|
|
Yes it's all changed in the past 30 years. At some point trad climbing was renamed to sprad climbing.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Please do enlighten me as to what essential changes have taken place in aid climbing other than slightly better gear.
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
but has aid climbing changed substantially in the past thirty years? Or did I miss something?
Well gear has substantially changed and thus aid has too. Clean vs hammering.
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
Offsets are a lot more than 'slightly better'
|
|
this just in
climber
north fork
|
|
The gear is the biggest part.
|
|
this just in
climber
north fork
|
|
Kevin did the doctor give you the green light?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Aid is cleaner, and the gear slightly better, but nothing significant has changed about what aid fundamentally 'is' from my perspective. Ok, there is Ammon, but that's about it from where I sit.
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
tji - I see the doc at 2:30!
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Absurd, really? I'd say if they don't think what they do outside is simply an emulation of what they do in the gym then you and they are suffering from a mass delusion of uncommon scope. How about you delineate in exactly in what ways it's different. How is dogging up a route from piece to piece or bolt to bolt any different than what goes on in gym where they learned. I expect that in sport climbing which is the original source of the emulation, but it's more than a bit sad seeing it in trad.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Fine, don't go back, but stop saying you're trad climbing when you're simply sport climbing on gear.
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
So then is the Dike Route on Pywaik a sport climb by your definition?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
So then is the Dike Route on Pywaik a sport climb by your definition?
You asking me? I've been talking about calling dogging up a line from piece to piece 'trad climbing' - not sure how that relates to a line on Pywaik if the question was directed to me.
...you don't hand jam 110' on a sport climb
But you can certainly sport climb your way up a 110' hand jam by dogging up it a piece at a time. You might consider that trad climbing, but I don't.
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
No there are no bolts on a crack (better not be). Sport climbing is more than safe protection it's thoughtless protection. Bolts to clip with draws.
No need to worry about placing gear, bring the gear with you, placing gear, selecting the right piece to place, proper slinging, etc. It's much different. You can dog a trad climb or a sport climb but you're not sport climbing on gear (unless the gear is really close, bomber, and pre-placed.)
HJ I don't disagree with much of what you saying (I'm with you mostly on retro bolting (100% except with the FAist approval) but many of your arguments seem not that logical so I'm just trying to keep you honest.
|
|
this just in
climber
north fork
|
|
That's sprad climbing right? Kev hope your doc tells you to go climbing for some rehab.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
The routes in Cave Rock were pretty much all put up on lead. Does that make them trad climbs?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Well, from my perspective the initial dust up and primary disagreement between what are now trad climbers and what were then becoming sport climbers wasn't the bolts, it was the use of dogging as a tactic - with bolting issues entirely secondary to the argument. And for me that's still what defines the difference between the two - not the bolts, but rather the use of dogging as a tactic. I have no problem with sport climbing as such, but merely with people thinking just because they're using gear that they're trad climbing, which simply isn't the case - it's about the tactics, not the protection.
Or, to quote Bachar, who is sorely missing from this conversation, from a 2008 thread:
If I worked on it ground up for a long time, falling and lowering to the start every time, and I finally got the climb, then I might say I did a "trad" ascent. But that's just a product of my "trad" background and upbringing.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Admittedly, FA's are getting hard to come by,
No they aren't. Not even is VERY well established areas. What's hard to come by (in established areas) are moderate splitter plumb lines 5 minutes from parking.
I guess I should have added some qualifiers, such as "in new areas" or "on untouched faces." I had lots of gems as easy pickings in the early 1970's. Based on recorded ascents (this is a rather important qualifier because we didn't record ours), Tim Schiller and I did the first technical climbing at Fresno Dome, the Balls, Dogtooth Peak, Little Baldy and Dinky Dome, as well as some more obscure western Sierra locations, and were exploring on the face Power Dome in 1971, so we were maybe the first ones there, too (although we didn't succeed, even using some aid). There was nothing extraordinary about us, other than a willingness to go off the beaten path.
While there are still some untouched areas in Yosemite (I'm not telling where!), the areas Tim and I climbed were both easily accessible and untouched. That added a dimension that's much harder to come by now.
John
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
The thread has drifted from ethics to personal style. Who gives a fuk about how other people climb routes?? Disclaimer: I've hung on bolts and gear.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
I have no problem with sport climbing as such, but merely with people thinking just because they're using gear that they're trad climbing, which simply isn't the case - it's about the tactics, not the protection.
Dogpointing a sport v trad route? Kinda different, methinks. It is what it is, and, I'd seen plenty of it before there was a thing called "sport" climbing. Failure to free climb a pitch. And that's...ok. If the attempt is while placing removable pro that doesn't alter the rock, I'll call it "trad". Geez, I'd hate to weight every piece I place. Wonder how many would actually work? Yikes!
I seem to dimly recall hearing that back in the early days of nuts, folks in the UK thought it was cheating to be able to clip the rope into protection that was placed far overhead, kind of a top rope of sorts.
Maybe good style would be to place gear but only clip it once your waist is past the piece? Heaven forbid I take the weight of the rope off me.
Discreet tension!
Cheaters never prosper. They just perspire? Maybe they don't even do that...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!