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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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bluering said explain how.
Holy crap dude you are seriously on another planet. Why don't you stick to defending BP from the big bad government. Why are you even trying to explain things to this dude. He's obviously not going to get it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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They're all fools to think something good is gong to come out of Afghanistan. History shows otherwise. There's no winning. Those guys will be against us forever just like we'd be against them forever if they occupied us.
Peace
karl
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jstan
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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"Some sort of self-destructive impulse, perhaps?"
I would argue it is a simple consequence of the dominant present day dynamic. People in positions of power are very quickly surrounded by "suck-ups" whose only importance arises from their abiltiy to divine what the big boy is thinking, They vocalize it, often by saying "absof*#kinglutely." It is a feedback train from there. In this case, unfortunately, it happened in the presence of a reporter.
The general is not dumb. So the central question remains, why did he agree to giving the Rolling Stone reporter access. That had to have been the basis for Obama's decision. He's not dumb either.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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Repost for emphasis!
"Public arrogance among the civilian elite is understood. Among the unwashed ranks of the military, it is unacceptable."
They would have run my a** up a flagpole for talking sh*t to the press about my superiors. I expect general piehole to be held to the same standard that they stood me tall for.
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Gene
Social climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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He who can't control what goes on in own his tent should not be in charge.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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Gene is right, that is why the general had to go.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 24, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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Blue is suffering from a debilitating case of LEBitous.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Austin, Texas
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Jun 25, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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I found this on slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2257952/
in a nutshell, the prez cant fire a top commander; only take them off an assignment.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 25, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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in a nutshell, the prez cant fire a top commander; only take them off an assignment.
Which is exactly what happened. He didn't kick him out of the military, he relieved him of his command as head of the Afghanistan front.
The Obama Presidency is seriously like the single greatest troll of you morons one could ever conceive of. Bush pushed his powers completely beyond the limits of what was accepted and you guys did nothing but defend him. Obama acts completely within what the most conservative of constitutionalists could conceive and it's nothing but tears and butthurt whining.
This is NOT because he's black though I just want to make that clear. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the color of the President's skin or the country of his fathers origin or heaven forbid the fact that his dad was Muslim and anyone who would imply such a thing should be ashamed of themselves.
Anyway, back to apologizing to BP for the horrible wrongs done to them.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 25, 2010 - 03:55am PT
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Go ahead. Get back to us when you find a name.
Wow...quite a challenge there Skipt. I think you just blew everyone's mind. Get back to us when that post has any information of consequence.
(ad hoc ergo hoc that is)
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 25, 2010 - 05:39am PT
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What? Huh? What are you saying?
At least that's the closest thing I can think of to make sense of your mash.
And now you know what it's like to read your posts.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 25, 2010 - 08:31am PT
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General McChrystal and the militarisation of US politics
America has settled into being a nation perpetually at war. In this climate it's no surprise generals sometimes get out of control
Simon Tisdall
Thursday June 24 2010
guardian.co.uk
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/23/mcchrystal-highlights-need-control-generals
Barack Obama has a problem with America's generals that is unlikely to be solved quickly or easily, whatever the outcome of the Stanley McChrystal affair [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/jun/23/general-stanley-mcchrystal-white-house-live" title="Guardian: General Stanley McChrystal's White House showdown - live]. The disrespectful behaviour of the US commander in Afghanistan and his aides was symptomatic of a more deeply rooted, potentially dangerous malaise, analysts suggest. This week's events might thus be termed a very American coup.
One reason for Obama's difficulty lies in his own inexperience. As a greenhorn commander-in-chief and a Democrat to boot, Washington watchers say Obama has had scant opportunity to win the military's respect, let alone its affection. His unease with his violent inheritance in Afghanistan and Iraq is evident.
Another reason appears to be the willingness of American conservatives of all stripes, in an increasingly polarised society, to buy into the "wimps in the White House" narrative peddled by General McChrystal's army staffers. It echoed rightwing criticism that Obama, who has never served, is personally unfit to lead.
It is not a big step from there to outright accusations of cowardice. "The ugly truth is that no one in the Obama White House wanted this Afghan surge," wrote New York Times columnist Tom Friedman [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/23/opinion/23friedman.html?th&emc=th" title="NYT: Whats Second Prize?] on Tuesday. "The only reason they proceeded was because no one knew how to get out of it ? or had the courage to pull the plug."
But perhaps the main reason why Obama's problem with the generals is bigger than McChrystal is the continuing impact of the post-9/11 legacy. George Bush defined the US as a nation perpetually at war. The Pentagon produced a theory to suit: the Long War doctrine postulating unending conflict against ill-defined but ubiquitous enemies. Unquestioning patriotism became an official ideology to which all were expected to subscribe.
According Andrew Bacevich, an author, America's armed forces wield growing political and social influence in an increasingly militarised society. Defence spending now approaches a trillion dollars a year, dwarfing the money allocated to diplomacy and foreign aid. Public figures, such as Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the joint chiefs, carry enormous clout on Capitol Hill. General David Petraeus, an Iraq war hero who heads the Orwellian sounding Central Command, is tipped as a future Republican presidential nominee.
The US is nothing like Turkey where, until recently at least, civilian governments lived in constant fear of a military coup. Nor is Washington some west African capital, where presidents come and go at the flick of a Kalashnikov safety catch. But the speed with which American commentators, reacting to McChrystal's mutinous behaviour, moved to stress the need to control the generals indicated uneasiness about current trends.
"The most important issues at hand in the furore [over McChrystal] is the central one in a democracy: civilian control over the military," said Jonathan Alter, of Newsweek [http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/22/why-military-code-demands-mcchrystal-s-resignation.html#" title="Newsweek: Why Military Code Demands McChrystal's Resignation]. "As upset as certain military officers have been with the Obama White House, as much as they like McChrystal's can-do spirit, this was a seriously can't-do moment. No one can quite believe McChrystal would be so stupid ..."
Author Eliot Cohen, writing in the Wall Street Journal [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704853404575322800914018876.html" title="WSJ: Why McChrystal Has to Go ], also stressed military deference to civilian authority. "It is intolerable for officers to publicly criticise or mock senior political figures [and] allies ... It is the job of a commanding officer to set a tone that makes such behaviour unacceptable."
Slate columnist Fred Kaplan resurrected some unsettling historical examples of American generals over-reaching [http://www.slate.com/id/2257818/?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+slate-117404+%28Slate+Magazine+-+War+Stories%29" title="Slate: Who's in Charge Here?], while offering reassurance that the same thing was not happening again. "This is not MacArthur versus Truman [President Harry Truman fired General Douglas MacArthur, at the time the wildly popular US commander in Korea, for defying orders to refrain from attacking China]," he said.
"It's not even Fallon versus Bush [President George Bush fired Admiral William 'Fox' Fallon, head of US Central Command, for publicly advocating a speedier pullout from Iraq than Bush had already ordered]. In fact, nowhere in the [Rolling Stone] article is McChrystal or any of his aides quoted as disagreeing with Obama's policy on Afghanistan." Kaplan's latter point is unsurprising, given that McChrystal wrote the policy.
Whatever misgivings he may harbour about his uppity generals, Obama remains largely at their mercy while he perpetuates the idea of the US as a nation at war and pursues the war in Afghanistan. The Pentagon is already resisting this December's White House policy review and next July's "deadline" for the start of an Afghan troop withdrawal. Petraeus, meanwhile, last week refused to rule out the deployment of yet more troops ? a potential second Afghan surge.
Obama may not like the situation but he should not be surprised by it. In Bacevich's 2005 book, The New American Militarism, the historian and former long-serving army officer and Vietnam veteran, focused on how Americans have increasingly found themselves in thrall to military power and the idea of global military supremacy.
In the context of what he called the "normalisation of war", Bacevich argued that unchallenged, expanding American military superiority encouraged the use of force, accustomed "the collective mindset of the officer corps" to ideas of dominance, glorified warfare and the warrior and advanced the concept of "the moral superiority of the soldier" over the civilian.
In the Bush years, Bacevich said, this trend also led to representations of the US president as a sort of supreme warlord, "culminating in George Bush styling himself as the nation's first fully-fledged warrior-president". Given these militaristic trends, it's little wonder the generals sometimes get out of control. And if warrior-president is what McChrystal wants from Obama, it's not surprising he's "disappointed".
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 25, 2010 - 08:38am PT
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Okay, I have been living outside of the States for a number of years, but that does not mean I am dumb. Polarized society? To be sure, as far as I can see, and I do believe I am pretty switched on when it comes to this issue.
The Guardian article that I just posted makes one point clear, if not several. America is at a perpetual state of war. My godson and nephew, Benjamin, entered Afghanistan (with his Marine outfit) on Wednesday, according to my sister-in-law.
For what? Why does the US have to be at war with the world? Oh, that's right, the world is at war with America. How simple, how simplistic, and ...
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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Jun 25, 2010 - 11:10am PT
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some of you must not have served...promote after presidential move...where exactly is he giving up a promotion to? Do you realize his current rank/position?
If some of you had ever worked with folks like him, Ranger,Delta,SF..you'd be asking why he intended to push this data to the reporter knowing full well the ramifications.
We're talking about a guy who runs daily, sleeps little, is totally switched on all day every day his entire career, ex delta commander. He didn't "slip up" for crap, guys like this don't slip, they make specific decisions with a goal in mind.
I wouldn't be surprised if he even had the "slips/data points" in a ppt that he had his inner circle memorize.
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
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Sounds damn good to me, Dingus.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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in a nutshell, the prez cant fire a top commander; only take them off an assignment.
That is what we call in these parts a difference without a difference.
If a General is taken off duty by the President of the United States his career is toast in the military.
Name a single commander who has been taken off duty by a President to ever advance in rank again.
Go ahead. Get back to us when you find a name.
Skip, come on, there's a huge difference between getting fired and becoming unemployed and getting taken off your top assignment and doing something easier for the same pay and rank.
Obama's not getting any promotion in the future either
and we're all wasting vast amounts of energy and money and lives on conflicts that don't protect nor serve us while those resources could be used to begin to bail us out of the energy crunch that actually does threaten national security and prosperity
We're not waking up fast enough. Don't think we can't go the way of Russia
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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Fattrad wrote-
"The leaders of Islam, not peoples, have declared war on non-believers, check with the Wahhabi clerics in Saudi Arabia, The madrassa in Pakistan, The warlords of Somalia, the rebels of Indonesia and Philippines, etc."
My understanding is that Fattrad is a Republican conservative (correct me if I am wrong) and the gods know I'm as far as one can get from the Republican Party but...
DMT continues to blow me away that he continues to have problems with this kind of quote. Yeah, it is a mystery.
When the Islamic jihadists and Medrassah graduates succeed at long last on their agenda to detonate a nuclear bomb in an American city will he still sing the same tune so loudly. Time will tell. I think he uses his talents to obfuscate, to obstruct, on this important issue. Shame.
Militant theology (at present most manifested by Islam) is a world problem now more than ever and it needs to be attacked using multiple strategies.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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It's not the same.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 25, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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TROOPS ARE HAPPY THAT OBAMA FIRED THE GENERAL:
The Rolling Stone correspondent whose profile of Gen. Stanley McChrystal upended America's Afghan war leadership says that soldiers on the ground are happy that the brash and sometimes reckless general was ousted by President Obama.
Michael Hastings tells Huffington Post in a phone interview from Afghanistan, where he is embedded with U.S. troops: "Over here, soldiers were happy that he got fired. I've had a number of people come up to me, I got an email from a Marine this morning [Thursday]: 'Hey man, you did great work. All the guys in my company think it's good McChrystal is not there because he was putting or lives at risk."
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