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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Apr 13, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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I supprised those bolts on tollhouse traverse are still there. Shameless.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 13, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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Courage in a rucksack....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 13, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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I'm with the Fet. Been a long time since I've climbed there, never done this route. However, if someone shows up and bolts an existing 5.8 without asking, they can get the same consideration and the bolts get whacked by the first party to see them. IMO! Wes, you and your childish antics aside, the bolts on Lev 29 were put in during the FA. If I misunderstand the process here, then I'm backing off.
Although Healyje says it for me, you don't actually chop bolts. It's easy, you just overtighten them. I've read a few treatiese on how to do it, but basically a long socket wrench and zip, they're off like he says.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 13, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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What would we think if closely spaced bolts appeared next to Twilight Zone?
Butterballs?
Lunatic Fringe?
Outer Limits?
Sacherer Cracker?
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mountain dog
Trad climber
over the hills and far away
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Apr 13, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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I agree with Tom Woods above. There are some good bolted routes out there, but after awhile it just gets ridiculous to place bolts on everything you see that might go if it had bolts. It is self serving. Not a service. Like I said before, I think many of these bolters are in it for there own ego boost rather than helping the climbing community. To many bolts makes a classic area an outdoor gym.
Todd Gordon, as much as I respect your contributions, I think there comes a time when it is time to stop and reflect on the impact. I think one awesome bolted route is better than 100 mediocre bolted routes. I know it is hard work and expensive to get your name in the guidebook and set records for quantity, but if all that energy was redirected to climbing harder clean routes ......
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mountain dog
Trad climber
over the hills and far away
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Apr 13, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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And no excuse for a bolted crack anywhere. Chop them all. Just do it right.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 14, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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I have no excuse for the crappy routes I put up.....guilty as charged;....but as far as impact.....just think;..more routes, dispersed crowds;...less impact on the fragile desert;...so I'm green afterall!.......(We do everything on the lead , usually without inspection....so we have no idea of difficulty and quality.....that's why most of them SUCK......but it's way more exciting than rap-bolting....)......anyways;..back to them damn bolted chimneys at Sugarloaf........
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mountain dog
Trad climber
over the hills and far away
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Apr 14, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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Todd, If things in this world continue as they are, by the time your children are in High School, Geology Tour Road will be a paved 4 lane highway. When they are your age there will be a paved road to the top of Queen Mountain. I guess it doesn't really matter much in the big picture. But we all should take individual responsibility for our environmental impact. And excess bolting is a huge impact to people who appreciate purity.
That said I still like you, and your goodwill to all people, not just climbers.
Now, back to that chimney in Sugarloaf. Go Norwegian. You rock.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 14, 2010 - 01:49am PT
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"dispersed crowds;...less impact on the fragile desert;...so I'm green afterall!"
Maybe. Maybe not. You have to ask what it is that we value. The whole idea behind the concept of wilderness and wilderness management is that most of all we need to maintain variety. Nothing worse than going to a place that looks like month old underwear no matter where you look.
There needs to be heavily used area and there needs also to be places where human impact has been kept to a minimum. So in this context putting in routes everywhere - is not such a good idea. Spreading people out sounds like a positive action that we think is an accomplishment.
Not so clear.
Even greener is to throw a top rope on something that may or may not be good. Then you avoid standing there saying, "Too bad we bothered to punch holes in that!" At that point the only out is to say, "Well I messed that up but no loss. It wasn't any good anyway."
Hikers and birders might have enjoyed the area much more had it been left unmodified.
And don't think other users will never notice. Take a picture of a formation before and then after it has been chalked up. Compare.
Clearly there are people who are not bothered by month old underwear. Those people are missing a tremendous opportunity. They could go into LA or Detroit and go buildering. If you open up the tops of the dumpsters below the climb you will have the best bouldering pad anyone ever had. Right there!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 14, 2010 - 01:57am PT
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Hey;....bolted chimneys.....c'mon;........How about them Lakers too?......
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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
climber
The Palace
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Apr 15, 2010 - 01:15am PT
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OK Chuck, here is another view:
As you know I also don't like the bolts and would like them gone. Why not step up, call Jerry, tell him your thoughts and ask him to remove them. If he doesn't want to, then apologize for you differences of opinion and explain why you need to remove them and take them out.
Please remember a couple of things:
This is your climbing community, the same one that came together for your in the past. Don't ruin relationships over something that can be sorted out reasonably.
Please also remember that Jerry has done, and continues to do, more for our climbing community than you or I will ever do combined over our liftime. He spends countless hours, trimming, repairing, writing to officials, reseaching, advocating for no other reason than he feels he ought to. Most will never know how much he does because he never sings his own praises.
You can disagree. You can get pissed off. You can remove the bolts.
Still, at the end of the day, vitriolic tirades belong to the chat room bottom feeders not you, and it will likely cause harm and regret. Does it really take more courage to talk to a man who you vehemently disagree with than to solo Fat Merchants crack. Perhaps?
Aidan
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Apr 15, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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hey, who makes the best drill bits?
do you carry a file and re sharpen on the cliff,
or is there some super duper depleted uranus type steel that lasts forever?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:25am PT
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"bolted chimneys"?
Note bolt, I stand behind it. Time and a place for everything..
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Apr 15, 2010 - 03:14am PT
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Norwegian, you know my tolerance level for things like this. However, I have to agree with Aidan and others that contacting the people who bolted the route first and explaining yourself and the actions you feel you should take is the best way to approach this situation.
I have not always done so in the past and I can tell you it does nothing but cause unnecessary friction and can lead to more damage being done to the rock. The old ways are just that, old and no longer needed. We have the advantage of vast communication at our finger tips and to choose not to use that is no less than a crime.
We are a tribe! I would call upon you to reach out to your brothers in that tribe and I promise you your words will not fall on def ears. They will listen, your words will be heard throughout and your stature will be upheld by all.
I don't ask these things because those who did the bolting are friends of mine. I ask that you take this path because it is the right thing to do.
I stand firm behind my beliefs, always stand behind my actions and have very few regrets in life, but one thing that I do regret is that I have taken the path of brash action with similar situations in the past.
I have already spoken with some of the people involved and they know what's coming. You will loose nothing by letting your voice be heard.
http://hwy50climbing.com/contactus.aspx
Chad...
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Apr 15, 2010 - 03:19am PT
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if you want to control people, get into management.
using climbing and bolts and the internet as a control mechanism is lame.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2010 - 08:27am PT
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respected peers,
thanks for the logic knudge.
i frolick in emotions and kind of enjoy the absurdity and often find myself WAY down a path a little yonder of my intended destination.
so your requests have been heeded.
i do not have time to make a call to these fellas. i used your link Chad, thanks.
i do not have time to chop bolts.
i work nearly all waking hours, and then some. i rush home to see my two lassies to bed each night. im gone before they wake.
currently, i am not their hero. and im pissed for that.
i leveled with Jerry in an honest, respectful, and mildly spicy manner.
if he chooses not to clean up this mess, then i will.
ever growing up,
chuck
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 15, 2010 - 11:14am PT
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i like the whymper quote
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 11:24am PT
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Out right is a variation finish
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 15, 2010 - 11:30am PT
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Sal wrote-
"Norwegian... Chad..."
You're the man. Nice writeup!
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Matthew Jones
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Apr 20, 2010 - 03:52am PT
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I just was at the site in question. I was there checking out the bouldering potential of the area. I stumbled on this striking line by happenstance and was instantly attracted to it. I plan on climbing it next week maybe. At first glance it does seem pretty easy and loads of fun. It doesn't look like it is well protected naturally, but how often are chimneys well protected. The bottom probably has bomber gear, but the upper part would be a little runout. It's also forward leaning and pretty textured on the opposing wall, which would make it an acceptable runout I think. Besides, this line was just bolted ridiculously. There are bolts on both sides like 4 feet apart it seems. The way I feel, is many men have probably climbed this naturally, so if you must climb this line, either do it yourself or find someone who can and follow him.
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