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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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Karl Baba wrote-
"it's the only outlook that suggests any justice in our existence...otherwise it's just God's (or Nature's) roulette wheel where some have it easy and others fight impossible odds..."
Got that right.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
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fructose, you big tattle-taler. yer gonna get a pink belly.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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who says if you should reincarnate up or down -that's a good one.
there are 1000s of people that say they were Cleopatra in a past life -another good one.
Thomas Berry-
it's evolutionary, it's creative... HFCS-
it's evolutionary, it's mechanistic, it's creative...
...and it's damn unfair in too many ways to count.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:26pm PT
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past lives--that's one of the things carl sagan conceded--did i mention that on this thread?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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How does Mozart write music at 5 years old? He brought the chops with him.
Or maybe he was just smarter than most of us. The simple explanation of him being smart at music is just so much less fun than thinking that it is magic.
And don't dis' Mo. By saying he had a head start, you are saying that he cheated. Are you cheating?
Dave
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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Tinhead Bird wrote-
"...did i mention that on this thread?"
Yeah, you did. And if I were King of America, I'd throw you in jail for that crazy nutso irresponsible remark.
Rectorsquid wrote-
And don't dis' Mo. By saying he had a head start, you are saying that he cheated. -damn straight.
And what about the so-called musical idiot savants like those profiled a couple of times on 60 minutes. What, did they come through the "portal" rushed- before they were fully "reset"?
To the supernaturalists east and west: take some science courses. Educate yourselves.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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too late to throw sagan in jail. you're still gonna get that pink belly. dr f will hold you down.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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Are you being just as irrational?
Or are you just having fun, like Largo?
-------
Hey, I'm trying to have some fun with this otherwise it get's deadly. But at the same time I try tossing a few things out there that serious adventurers can test drive if so inclined, as opposed to just off-loading a bunch of cognitive decrees.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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Times are changing, thank goodness. It's one more example. In the past, disagreements over these subjects could and would get deadly. No longer.
(Unless, perhaps you're posting from Iran or Pakistan, medieval Abrahamic nations regarding their govs if not their people.)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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Good to look at your emotional investment in "Being Right" on this thread. Obvious that many folks are saying "Not proved" or "no evidence" about things when they really haven't given it an honest look.
Like the tourists at the base of El Cap who can't believe anyone has ever climbed that thing, when it's crawling with climbers.
Spirituality is sort of like that. The "El Cap" climbers of the Spirit don't try to Spray about it to folks who aren't interested, because they know that nobody is going to get it until they are ready, that everyone is on their path in some way and will come to know in their own time, and because they don't want to waste their time or be burned at the stake (or modern day Equivalent)
Of course, lots of frauds and delusional folks out there too, but hey, we're shipwrecked in this life and on this planet and science isn't able to do a damn thing yet to help us prepare for after death.
So you have to separate the wheat from a lot of choss if you want to go into it, or just live your life and deal with whatever happens if you'd rather do the hard knocks school. Both the Spirit School and the Life school have hard knocks. My experience is that the Spirit school makes the hard knocks easier and gives you tools to have insight and happiness now.
I understand why people are pissed at religion, they have a completely valid case, just like we could be pissed at science for giving us a world of pollution and the tools to kill everyone on the planet. It's reflections of our human situation. The trick is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and take a stab at the big mysteries of Life.
Thought experiment. Even science says everything likely forms of one energy. As a baseline, let's call that "God" and recognize that this energy manages to form in intelligent ways. It's communicating with itself through it's own laws and forces. Look at the laws of conservation of forms of energy and don't assume consciousness is excluded. There's a "God" for sure that got you under control in some way. The real question is "What is and what isn't God's nature?" Think of the scope of God, even in science-energy God, and you'll understand that trying to stuff that into a mental concept is beyond our wiring and that science has only scratched the surface.
Peace
Karl
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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Karl- The sciences reveal that life at base is physics and chemistry. And a successive buildup of these in "anabolic" systems. There's no getting around it- this conclusion. This conclusion or in different terms decision-making is made all the stronger the greater a person's so-called science span, too.
What's more, sciences and engineering- in addition to everyday general life experience- also teach that there is an intimate relationship if not marriage between structure and function. Many esp those whose life experiences have been centered on its study or investigation (e.g., as a scientist or engineer) have grown to appreciate, respect this inter-relationship. So naturally they don't like to see it denied or dissed and so, thus, are responding.
From the perspective of those who highly regard the functionality of matter in all its forms, let's call them material functionalists, to deny this close wonderous structure-function correspondence that matter gifts us is (a) easily seen as ignorant or disrespectful and (b) quite analogous to denying that man could climb El Cap to use your example.
you have to separate the wheat from a lot of choss if you want to go into it -damn straight.
P.S.
If one wanted to engage in "stretching" however, using the power of human imagination, he could easily call the propagation of genes or their phenotypes or phenotypal functionality "reincarnation." Heck, maybe I will for a couple of days- just to show that I have the power to stretch my imagination and the power to strecth my metaphors and language.
I believe in reincarnation. Genetic reincarnation. Phenotype reincarnation.
P.S.S. Karl's a reincarnationist. ("Absolutely...") So I wonder if Jan's a reincarnationist.
P.S.S.S Karl, good work on the Peak Oil posts. We have common ground with that one.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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largo--nothing you've ever mentioned on this thread has sounded like a serious adventure to me, except the story about tommy. i've had an adventure or two like that--they seem to come along in their own sweet time--hard to go out looking for them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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Jolly Roger wrote-
"It was my quest to understand things greater than me."
Me, too. That's why I've been studying it all- the whole shebang- without letup since childhood. For some, it was tennis or rock n roll or Wall Street or Hollywood, for me it was always that great intersection (or agora) where science, philosophy, religion and belief come together to address the Big Questions of life and to seek life strategies for getting through it.
Regarding religion, JR wrote-
it allows people to believe in something greater than themselves. Agree.
It also allowed people (a) to over-state, or over-inflate, how the world truly works and how life truly works and then (b) to institutionalize these over-done larger-than-life models. And today we're paying the price for this on many fronts.
Locker- Excellent!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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let's talk about mozart and justice--that's what "amadeus" was all about--his competitor salieri was just sick about that much talent in his sorry-ass face.
karl, i think you need to rethink justice. did salieri come back as jelly roll morton?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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Karl wrote-
"Thought experiment. Even science says everything likely forms of one energy. As a baseline, let's call that "God" and recognize that this energy manages to form in intelligent ways. It's communicating with itself through it's own laws and forces. Look at the laws of conservation of forms of energy and don't assume consciousness is excluded. There's a "God" for sure that got you under control in some way. The real question is "What is and what isn't God's nature?" Think of the scope of God, even in science-energy God, and you'll understand that trying to stuff that into a mental concept is beyond our wiring and that science has only scratched the surface."
Fine. But you're selective if not deluded if you think this is the "God concept" of eight out of ten in the bible belt of America- or that it would be an acceptable spiritually satisfying form of "God" to them.
In the past, both you and Brian (the phily prof) have made light of these kind of religious people as though they hardly exist. In American culture, still today, they are the majority. I repeat: the majority. The majority of American culture believes this world is three worlds in one (a three-layer cake) and that it is a God Kingdom ruled by God-King Jehovah.
Were you and Brian raised in Ivory Towers or Harvard Square? I wasn't. My family, and I believe Weschrist's too, were raised squarely in Kansas or Utah settings. So firsthand we know the people and the effects. Today's politics don't reflect any energy-god, instead it reflects strongly the personal God Jehovah taken quite literally.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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I always think it's strange when people state a belief in the supernatural is somehow a requirement to believe in something bigger/greater than themselves. Or maybe I just don't get it.
I am just a single human. A thinking animal with a limited lifespan and maybe a soul. I can think of a number of things greater than myself; all people living, humanity, the Earth, the solar system, the Univserse, Jesus (the man), The Founding Fathers, Royal Robbins, Elvis, etc.
A single human is an incredibly amazing thing, but of course there are greater things.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
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Fet- I get you. There are countless things greater than me and they are all natural. Outstanding.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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My feeling is that both traditional religion and science are in the dark to a great degree regarding the biggest picture of existence. That's the way it rolls on this dense rock we live on.
I'm not taking on everybody's blind faith except for ones who express an interest. You'll notice they'll turn a deaf ear, just like "non-believers" sometimes do here on the taco. I haven't been arguing in favor of old religions here on this thread, just in favor of what I've found to be true.
I've made it plain here that I don't accept 3000 year old morality laws and even the fundamentalists don't practice the religious laws of Jesus time (like stoning adulterers) I'm happy to fight against Sharia Law or Old Bible law being instituted in the US. Still, I respect the way we all make due with life and have consistently found that everyone I meet through supertopo is a fine person in person.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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Karl, and that's why I like you. And would miss your posts.
Peace.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Karl- The sciences reveal that life at base is physics and chemistry. And a successive buildup of these in "anabolic" systems. There's no getting around it- this conclusion. This conclusion or in different terms decision-making is made all the stronger the greater a person's so-called science span, too.
Thats if you take a rather gross level view of life. When you get one level more subtle, the level of "Prana, Chi, Life force" experienced by martial arts and meditators in every culture throughout time. Then science is lost.
Dismiss it out of hand if you want to close your mind but if you care to challenge your assumptions, check out this guy who has been observed in controlled scientific settings. He says he hasn't eaten in many decades. Science observed him, and found he managed well without eating. Theoretically impossible and reported by the BBC. Did this lead to greater scientific investigation? Hardly. Both science and religion like their heads in the sands where investigation runs against their cultural grain.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8652837.stm
Peace
Karl
From a wiki on him
"Prahlad Jani is a controversial Indian 81 year old sadhu who has claimed to have lived without food and water for the last 70 years. His ability to live without food and water was investigated during monitoring over a two-week period[33] by the doctors and researchers of Defence Institute of Physiology & Allied Science (DIPAS), a branch of India's Defence Research and Development Organisation within the Indian Ministry of Defence. Dr. Ilavezhagen (director, DIPAS) said a conclusion on the survival mechanism would be drawn only after critically analyzing the reports of tests carried out during April 22-May 6, which may take up to several months. The researchers stated that, although people are known to survive longer than two weeks without food or water, they were surprised at the lack of urine or stool production.[33] Two extensive testing periods have been taken to examine the functioning of Prahlad Jani's physiology in 2003 and in 2010 in Sterling Hospital (NABH & NABL[34] accredited hospital and lab), Ahmedabad, Gujarat. The team of doctors from Ahmedabad from various specialties joined as co-investigators. Coordinating agencies including SRISTI[35], the Gujarati government and other consulting doctors had been involved to assure the highest standard of scientific procedure[clarification needed].[36] In recent Press Release the investigators officially declared their intent to continue the scientific analysis after the tests based on the collected data for approximately 3 months.[37]
In 2010, a team of researchers kept Jani under round-the-clock surveillance for 15 days. The only condition Mr. Jani set for the team was not to carry out any “invasive” tests that would require him to consume water or any other fluid.[33] The team reported that he did not consume any food or water during this time, although they could not comment on his claim of having been able to survive in this way for several years.[36][38] The study concluded that Prahlad Jani lived healthily without either food or water, and had passed no urine or stool,[39] with no need for dialysis.[40]
Interviews with the involved doctors/researchers speak of strict observation routine and relate that round-the-clock observation was insured by multiple CCTV cameras and subject of tests was taken out for MRI, USG, and X-ray examination and exposure to sun under continuous video recording.[41] As per official press release, Jani's only contact with any form of fluid was during gargling and bathing beginning from 5th day of study.[42]. The doctors measured the fluid that was spit out.[43]
The case has attracted criticism, both after 2003 tests and after the recent 2010 tests, with many suspecting some sort of deception or oversight on the side of researchers who conducted the documented tests. Sanal Edamaruku, president of the Indian Rationalist Association, criticized the experiment for allowing Jani to move out of a certain CCTV camera's field of view, meet devotees and leave the sealed test room to sunbathe. Edamaruku felt that the regular gargling and bathing activities were not sufficiently monitored,[44] and accuses Jani of having had some "influential protectors" who denied Edamaruku permission to inspect the project during its operation.[44].
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