Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
|
Tony-
Kukai was a celibate monk. Were you reading English subtitles? A lot gets lost in translation over here.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
|
Like my wife says...
"Hey, what I believe makes no sense, but it makes me feel good at times."
This is the real reason I think, why religion survives.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
|
no, jan, but the event itself could well have been a fiction or legend. the point of the little vignette was--in face of death, affirm what is good about life. perhaps more of a taoist sentiment. but i hate to tell you about certain "celibate" monks, east or west ...
|
|
rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
|
Just to humor you...
What makes you think that the perceived baggage of a soul that has existed on earth for 50-60 years would be superior to that of a soul that has not experienced "the world". And like I said, they would both have perfect peace(after all, they are in heaven).
And I am going by what I know of Hades and Paradise(this is not yet heaven and hell). Of Lazerus and the rich man. The rich man was doing all the talking, Lazarus seemed very content. Again... Reading comprehension FAIL!
I said:
#1 You believe that all you are aware of now, your memories and experiences will be with you in Heaven.
#2 Yet here, you won't quite acknowledge that what you have another soul will not, thus your "soul" will be of qualitative difference than the soul of an infant. Where did I say 'superior'? I said qualitatively different.
What I am saying is that you believe that all of your life experiences and memories will go with you... That's kida the key of an 'afterlife' as it means that you will, in some form live forever, which is why that idea of an everlasting soul/spirit is so appealing... People fear their mortality.
Now... Back on track....
You believe that you will take all of that with you, but that an infant will have nothing of the sort, as they lived no life, have no experiences or memories. In fact, they can't even think, as try to think without words.... We think in words.
Now you dodged the fetus part, as they never even saw light, yet you believe their souls will be in Heaven as well.
See, what I am trying to get you to look at is that you have a set of beliefs (confident beliefs) that not only do you have no REASON to believe, as per your own admition, but also that makes no sense when looked at with reason.
The fact that you cannot really answer them shows that, but you just ignore it... Don't think about it, and say you aren't interested in thinking about it... But it's TRUE!
Get it? I don't think so.
|
|
rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
|
Like my wife says...
"Hey, what I believe makes no sense, but it makes me feel good at times."
This is the real reason I think, why religion survives. |
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
|
Dr. F, Craigy....that's the point. :D When I went the opposite way from non believer to believer my whole life changed. How I treated others, how I treated myself, from being negative and self centered to a much more positive person with a focus on helping others.... to cite just a few of the many great things that have been slowly building and playing out in my life really due in a huge part to actually trying to live out Matthew 5-7 on a day by day basis. Peace, lynnie
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
|
you'd better reiterate them, dr. F. if you do, i'll try. probably the most important aspect of christianity.
i find it interesting that islam can be an equally powerful religion, ignoring the resurrection of jesus entirely, and mohammed is a-moulderin' in his grave in medina and people just file by reverently and don't carry on.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
|
rrrADAM- "Since God created man in his own image, does that mean He has a penis? A anus? Eyes and hands?..."
T-Bird- "Does that mean man has three heads"
"And you put on the new man, that was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness of the truth." Ephesians 4:24
God is spirit, so it says in John 4. And man is also of spirit(body, soul and spirit). We can therefore communicate with Him and worship Him.
We are able to comphrehend between good and evil/right and wrong and are rational beings. We share to some degree, some of His attributes such as love.
God can be angered and has feelings that can be grieved.
These are just a few ways...
|
|
rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
|
TripL7, et all...
Let me see if I can distill this down for you to better show the point I am trying to make...
Let's review:
You confidently believe, because of your "relationship" with Jesus (I.e., emotions), and some (not all, just some) text in the Bible that you interpret in a manner that validates what you believe. (Again, not all, as much of what you believe is "speculation", and cannot be found in the text.)
Yet... You confidently dismiss the same "relationship" (emotions) and interpretations of the same text (Jews), or even other texts (Muslims), to be false, as there can be only "one true God", and Jesus is that God, or at least an integral part of it.
Now... Why is your "realtionship" (emotions) and interpretation correct, yet all others false?
See... The same things you use to validate your beliefs, other use to validate theirs as well. And, the most powerfull one is the "relationship" (emotion), and people have been having 'religious experiences' for thousands of years, from the Oracles of Delphi, to the many Shamins all over the world, to the Muslim Bomber or Jihadist, etc...
Now... What makes you different than all others who believe in a competing faith?
|
|
rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
|
rrrADAM- "Since God created man in his own image, does that mean He has a penis? A anus? Eyes and hands?..."
T-Bird- "Does that mean man has three heads"
"And you put on the new man, that was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness of the truth." Ephesians 4:24
God is spirit, so it says in John 4. And man is also of spirit(body, soul and spirit). We can therefore communicate with Him and worship Him.
We are able to comphrehend between good and evil/right and wrong and are rational beings. We share to some degree, some of His attributes such as love.
God can be angered and has feelings that can be grieved.
These are just a few ways... Dude... You even quoted, yet failed to answer.
"Created in his image"...
To refresh your memory:
image (plural images)
An optical or other representation of a real object; a graphic; a picture.
And also remember... He created Adam from dust (in his own image), and Eve from one of Adam's ribs. It doesn't say, or even imply, that he created his soul from dust. That story is a way of saying where the first man and woman came from, as after that, they were born from Women... With no souls needed to be created from dust to blow into the babies.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
|
I have meditated, read about a variety of religions, opened my heart to Jesus in a church, and more. It all provided some insight to what other people probably believe and I have learned lessons and ways to look at things that have made my life better. But I have felt the most spiritual and connected to God/The Univese from contemplating the scientific theories around the origin of the universe and relativity.
IMO if something is true it will likely be able to be shown and experienced, not told and believed.
I try to be open minded and willing to understand new ways to think, but I also see religion as taking advantage of this, and also taking advantage of people's fear of death, and other fears to bring them into their fold and win their hearts, minds, and wallets.
There are so many religous teachings that I see as obvious BS. E.g. Ours is the only way to God. These Red Flags indicate these religions are self serving bureaucracies. The histories of most the major religions also speak to the contrived way they were constructed to assimilate as many people as possible and how ruthless they have been in destroying competing views. If what you speak is truth is should stand on it's own.
I can also tell when I converse with religous people they are not interested in any debate that threatens their beliefs. I have never heard a very religous person admit the could be totally wrong. If it is truth you should not be frightened to explore other possibilities.
If you choose to believe, and that belief brings you comfort, guidance, purpose, etc. and you feel it is 100% truth, I have no probelm with that, but don't push that belief on me and expect it to work for me.
I think evolution is life-affirming almost by definition. Modified versions of earlier life survive and reproduce better in their environment. What better way to affirm life than to produce new life that is more successful and diverse.
I think, "you can't describe it" when talking about religous experiences is a cop out. Words can't describe everything but they can certainly give an approximation or a starting point.
More on the original question: Why do so many people believe in God? Early people needed an explanation for their universe, so they created the gods. Later religions evolved these concepts (and sometimes copied older stories almost verbatim) and created massive organizations and books to promote their views and bureaucracies. Currently there are around 600,000 clergymen and women in the US alone, of course many are promoting religion. Many religions promote proselytizing, and people come literally knocking on my door to promote their religion. But over time this influence is diminishing. After Christianity and Islam, non-religous is the next major "religion". This trend is continuing. At some point there will be more non-religous than religous.
|
|
rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
|
Well said.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
|
rrrADAM- "Now you dodged the fetus part..."
"No I didn't 7:27am(this morning)"The unborn "fetus" soul will be present with God as a fully developed spirit."
You do realize this is a temporary place(Paradise)and that Jesus will return and resurect our bodies to be joined with our spirit/soul and He is going to set up His Kingdom here on earth for 1,000 years. Just think of all the climbing you could do in 1,000 years!
Sure would be cool to have you guys here to belay me! hehe...
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
|
i'm going to assume you're not being facetious here, doc--most people have some knowledge of the standard christian version of these alleged events.
jesus died, yes, but he overcame death. only died once. once was enough. resurrected, walked around a bit, ascended into heaven on a cloud, i think it says. promises to be with us always. supposedly coming back to judge everyone, wrap up the show, heaven happily ever after for those who got in on the program.
don't get picky about the cloud. yea, if he'd'a done it today, some jetliner might have zinged through the cloud he was ascending on, and that would've been the end ... of the jetliner.
my younger brother just got back from a trip to italy, including a viewing of the shroud of turin. we argue this crap until we both get headaches. pretty convincing relic, the shroud, the wrapping cloth jesus was supposedly buried in. it was as though his body passed through the cloth like gas, leaving the mark of jesus behind. really high-tech holy. want to see jesus? go to turin.
so the resurrection is the great imperative of christianity, and it's why they claim such an all-powerful god. stripped of the resurrection, it's kind of a pain-in-the-butt religion. i've even had priests tell me as much. everything hinges on that. accept it or don't. believe or not. either/or--not much leeway inbetween.
it becomes a matter of "qualia" for me. (hahaha--f*@k that word). i find this god-magic world an impossible milieu for tony bird's daily life. i also think it stands in the way of most of the efforts to make the world a decent place, preventing us from seriously focusing on problems in the here and now and getting our heads together about them. too many believers want to walk around with smiles on their faces and love in their hearts and not really think they ever have to do anything about the big problems because, after all, the god that can make a body pass through that sheet and come alive again is the one in charge.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
|
I wound up writing this to someone and why not post it here as well:
It's a big universe and this earth is just one place. We tend to judge "God" and "Creation" based on our blind experience here on this dense planet. We assume it's supposed to be a pleasant experience to live here.
My experience is that people often, even, mainly, grow through their painful experiences. The difficulties we undergo are reflection of things hidden within us that emerge for us to look at, resolve and integrate. Having an inkling of past lives is also gives a clue that we wind up experiencing reflections of pain we caused in the past (when we were even less evolved) Perhaps this planet is the tough place where we learn hard lessons (like climbing a big wall is hell and we go for it anyway)
Still, no point in accepting a God on Blind Faith nor rejecting one based on limited logic.
We can keep the truth at bay with our unconscious will for independence from "higher power." God doesn't need your brown nosing and being left alone is no problem. If you are ready to open your eyes, then seek it.
Clearly and unambiguously invite the Spirit to visit you and don't have an expectation of how that will happen or what it will be like, and something will happen, if one doesn't stand in their own way. Life is always speaking to us, every day. The world is fluid, nothing is randomly coincidental. Events will speak to you if you listen
Peace
Karl
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
|
(a) Karl Baba, you are a (convinced) reincarnationist?
(b)God doesn't need your brown nosing and being left alone is no problem. Yet, (1) the whole of the Abrahamic religion turns on this idea and (2) when outsiders (those outside the Abrahamic religion) point out the immaturity of this idea (e.g., as obviously anthropogenic, manmade), they're typically attacked.
(c) "We assume it's supposed to be a pleasant experience to live here." Yeah, ain't that amazing.
Looks like we could do better than the Abrahamic narrative. Time for a fresh look.
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
|
Or maybe everything is randomly coincidental and we just impose patterns on it because we can.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
|
Karl Baba, you are a (convinced) reincarnationist?
Absolutely, there was a long history of even early Christians (the Gnostics, among others) believing in reincarnation.
Not only is there amazing evidence of people remembering their past lives, writing it down, and then researching the facts...it's the only outlook that suggests any justice in our existence.
People are obviously born with greatly different talents, resources, pains and challenges. It makes sense if we evolve from life to life and undergo the reflections of our previous actions. otherwise it's just God's roulette wheel where some have it easy and others fight impossible odds in a "One shot and if you mess up, it's torture forever" folly.
How does Mozart write music at 5 years old? He brought the chops with him.
Even Jesus in the bible said he was "here before" but wasn't recognized.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
|
doc, it tells you a little about the way things work.
they made a big deal about it 10 years ago or so, when they actually gave up a little bit of the shroud for radiocarbon dating. the results came back, pretty much as you say, although i haven't seen that about the paint chemicals before. this came out in time magazine. the next thing you know, there's quite an uproar. that shroud means a lot to a lot of people. then time magazine comes out with some scientific equivocation. you will find websites these days with scientists on both sides of this silly shroud, equally credentialed, picking this nit and that nat and arguing about mistakes and oversights the other side made. just like 9/11--exactly (as largo likes to say).
and if that wasn't enough, they had a fire in the cathedral shortly afterwards and a brave italian fireman on the front page, having saved the shroud from the flames. to me, the modus operandi starts to get transparent.
now if you like the shroud, i've got another good one for you. there's a nice italian town named prato that has lived in the shadow of florence since the middle ages. every place likes to have a local product, and the local product here, don't laugh, is the virgin mary's garter. i found out about this because we we're walking around downtown and i noticed some very unusual architecture in their beautiful, old cathedral: it has what looks like an outdoor pulpit, a very graceful pulpit, reminding me of the seashell boticelli's venus stands on. hmmm--maybe this was a lively medieval town where there was lots of speeches and rhetoric on the town square? not a chance. this special little gallery was built so the church's relic could be shown to the faithful once a year. you got to kneel down and admire the glory of a piece of white cloth. pretty exciting, huh?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!