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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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whoaaa ... fructo is not an atheist?
If I'm forced to identify with a label in the negative, referencing what I don't believe in, then that would be... Fructo is a non-jehovahnist, just as Fructo is a non-Serapean or non-Jovian.
anyway, teilhard did all that stuff you're asking for in your first paragraph.
"...all that stuff..."
-the more you post, the more I think your writing is so loose (e.g., with the context) and flippant it is not worth reading.
Ha! Here's Tony writing about Largo on another thread-
"his writing often shows a lack of discipline and tends to run way long... as i said previously, i don't think he's digested that stuff yet, and that may be why he isn't making sense here."
If that aint the pot calling the kettle black.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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rrrADAM!
I base my belief on a RELATIONSHIP!!
A relationship that started at 8 years old and is PERSONAL!
But you can not grasp the fact that an Omnipotent God can speak to and relate to and prove His presents to ME, YOU, or ANYONE with an open heart and mind.
I have no doubt about who He is. I knew the moment He came into my life, and the first ten years of the relationship I never even opened a Bible. And the brief time in church from 8-12 years old, they spoke in Latin, and I didn't have a clue what the rituals were about. But I did know Jesus Christ and what He was doing in my heart and life.
I left the Catholic Church at 12 because it didn't jive with what God was telling me in my relationship with Him.
I don't have any personal or spiritual responsibility to answer your ambiguous questions which you somehow feel will prove or disprove something.
I could care less about how accurate my answers were, I did the best I could with what I have read and studied over the years and what the Bible does say. Who knows what our souls/spirit will be experiencing in paradise or hades.
I do know our spirit is with Jesus...good enough for me. And it is heaven! What an absurd question "What about the soul of the two year old, will it be self centered and throwing tantrums."
Who knows and who cares? That is a question that a ten year old would ask, and then come back and say..."Your not concerned about the particulars..."
I am not concerned about ridiculous questions about two year old's throwing tantrums.
I would imagine it is in perfect peace!
You have already come to your own bigoted closed minded conclusions!
LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION! Why should I be compelled to answer YOUR questions period. And if I should IGNORE one of your questions, how does that make me "WILLFULLY IGNORANT?
You are a pathetic fool rrrADAM! You are the one who is denying, denying, denying!!! Ignoring, ignoring, ignoring.
And it is eating at your soul because you can not PROVE that God doesn't exist.
You claim to have been an "Xian" but you DENY ever knowing Him.
You believed with your head maybe, but not with your heart. Because had you asked Him into your heart, His Spirit The Holy Spirit would have joined with your spirit and you would have been spiritually born again.
"You must be born again."
"For even the demons BELIEVE He is the Son of God, and SHUDDER!"
You are a fool rrrADAM, I say this with great dismay and sadness in my heart. "For the fool says there is no God".
For you are full of your own ignorance and a willful
EDIT: MY COMPUTERS BATTERY RAN OUT!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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Here's Thomas Berry, p25, the Great Work, which I read Nov 2008: "Our observational sciences presently have moved beyond the mechanistic understanding of a so-called objective world as it was known in the past few centuries of Newtonian physics." That's a problem. Either it's sloppy writing or sloppy thinking, I don't know which.
It's a problem because though arguably (for those splitting hairs between nm and qm) we are "beyond" the mechanistic metaphor of billard balls (Newton's mechanistic reactions, Newtons' mechanics) we are not beyond the mechanistic metaphor of the next model, quantum mechanics.
But it is hard to criticize Berry when he says 100 great things in this book. -Which I could've quoted as well. Hard? Esp on a forum.
EDIT
Ha! Here's Tony writing about Largo on another thread-
"his writing often shows a lack of discipline and tends to run way long... as i said previously, i don't think he's digested that stuff yet, and that may be why he isn't making sense here."
If that aint the pot calling the kettle black.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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never heard of teilhard then, fruc?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
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oops--the cat's outa the bag. back to 9/11 talk.
:-D
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
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i know largo won't take it personally--it was a trick comment.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Fructose-
You asked for someone who could write an inspiring narrative for a new nature and evolution based religion so I suggested Swimme and Berry as two that seem to be good role models for what you are proposing.
Meanwhile it certainly strikes me that whatever old religions we hang onto or new ones we create, they are all going to have to come to terms with man's place in the natural world, our responsibility to our own ecosystem, and our place in various forms of evolution - not just physical evolution but also our social, psycological, and spiritual evolution.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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Tony-
i think we're talking about different guys named Kukai.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
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Jan wrote-
"so I suggested Swimme and Berry as two that seem to be good role models for what you are proposing"
Thanks. Agree they are fine role models. Loyal Rue, too. Campbell, too. Moreover, we need whole new disciplines, in and out of academia, to address it and most importantly, to get around to do it.
Just do it.
Additional:
Jan wrote-
"...old religions we hang onto or new ones we create..."
For starters, we won't be calling them "religions." We'll leave that word to the supernaturalists.
Jan wrote-
"...they are all going to have to come to terms with man's place in the natural world, our responsibility to our own ecosystem, and our place in various forms of evolution - not just physical evolution but also our social, psycological, and spiritual evolution."
Now we're cooking, nicely said. Hey, agreement.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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rrrADAM- "The Trinity is a human construct that came about in the 4th century."
Did you read what I posted up thread?
To begin with/once again:
"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likness;..." Genesis 1:26
And there are many more ref. two the Triune Godhead!
Moses was the author of Genesis...way before the 4th Century!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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same guy, jan. this was shown at a temple of esoteric buddhism. you may not know him very well.
:-)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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okay, tripl--god is a trinity and it makes man in his likeness.
wait a minute--three-headed men then?
but there's the trick--we have men and women, a natural balance and complement evolved way back in nature. if this reflects god, god must be a lovely balance of male and female. not quite the god delivered by christianity, a lopsidedly male monster with strange dovetailed side-effects.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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rrrADAM- "The Trinity is a human construct that came about in the 4th century."
Did you read what I posted up thread?
To begin with/once again:
"Then God said, 'Then God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likness;..." Genesis 1:26
And there are many more ref. two the Triune Godhead!
Moses was the author of Genesis...way before the 4th Century!
Yea... Certainly MUST be the one/three God(s) you believe in, not any of these other Gods mentioned in your Bible:
Adrammelech II Kings 17:31 Sepharvite God.
Anammelech II Kings 17:31 Sepharvite God.
Ashima II Kings 17:30 Samaritan Moon Goddess.
Ashtoreth I Kings 11:05 Canaanite Goddess.
Baal I Kings 18:19 Canaanite God ("Lord") of
fertility, vegitation, and storms.
Baal-berith Judges 8:33 A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-peor Numbers 25:03 Moabite regional variation/aspect of
Baal.
Baal-zebub Luke 11:19 Philistine/Ekronian regional
variation/aspect of Baal.
Baalim I Kings 18:18 Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a
collective of the different
aspects of Baa.
Bel Isiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God
("Lord").
Chemosh I Kings 11:07 Moabite war God.
Dagon I Samuel 05:02 Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God
of agriculture.
Diana of the
Ephesians Acts 19:35 Ephesian moon and nature Goddess,
("Divine/Brilliant").
Jehovah Exodus 6:03 Hebrew God
Jupiter Acts 14:12 Roman God (possibly derived from
'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus).
Lucifer Isiah 14:12 ("Light-Bearer")
Mercurius Acts 14:12 Otherwise known as the Roman God
Mercury, God of communication and
travel, and messenger of the
Gods...which is probably why Paul
was called this at Lystra.
Milcom I Kings 11:05 Ammonite God
Molech I Kings 11:07 Ammonite God, also called Moloch,
most probably Baal-Hammon of
Carthage.
Nebo Isiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of
wisdom and writing, also called
Nabu.
Nergal II Kings 17:30 Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and
underworld God, also called
Meshlamthea.
Nibhaz II Kings 17:31 Avites God
Nisroch II Kings 19:37 Assyrian God
Rimmon II Kings 05:18 Babylonian/Syrian storm God
involved (as Ramman) with the
Deluge, according to Hebrew texts;
also known as Ramman/Rammon.
Succoth-benoth II Kings 17:30 Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She
Who Produces Seed"), also known as
Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum.
Tammuz Ezekial 8:14 Assyrian/Babylonian God
Tartak II Kings 17:31 Avites God
Ya know, Jesus was a great teacher, and why is it that he never taught the "Trinity", if you believe it was relevant prior to the 4th century? Do your homework... Problem is, you believe all this "hearsay" by people who never knew Jesus before he died, take it as "Gospel" (all pun intended), and absolutely will not look elsewhere.
Note also that you put Jesus before God, as you pray to him "through" Jesus, (I.e., In Jesus' name I pray), and the 1st Commandment has two parts, not just one. At least know your rules. Jesus would rebuke you for breaking this 1st Commanment, and he would tell you that you are to pray to the same God that he did... Same God the Muslims do today, but not you. God even said, "No other Gods before me...", so he acknowledges that there are many Gods (see above), but he wants to be your special favorite God.
And you just have to find a way to dismiss or ignore what I have to say, even if you have to make it up...
"I only had God in my head..." Nope, reading comprehension FAIL! As I said, I was just as confident as are you. I believed with all of my heart.
And you don't have to answer any of my questions... They are the questions that will set you free, yet you like it in your comfy box of dogma. No freedom for you.
What you should be asking yourself is:
"If my belief is reasonable, then why cannot I not reasonably answer such simple questions?"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Nope, I believed with all of my heart...".
So do the demons!
Maybe I didn't make it to clear, "You must be born again."
You must repent(realize that you are a sinner, and turn/say your sorry, and then ask Jesus to come into your life and take it over(put Him on the throne/center of your life)which results in a spiritual rebirth.
When did all this take place?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Nope, I believed with all of my heart...".
So do the demons!
Maybe I didn't make it to clear, "You must be born again."
You must repent(realize that you are a sinner, and turn/say your sorry, and then ask Jesus to come into your life and take it over(put Him on the throne/center of your life)which results in a spiritual rebirth.
When did all this take place? I was, and did all that... When I was 15. Believed for about 6 years... Even witnessed to my friends trying to save them from Hell too.
So, now what?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Maybe I didn't make it to clear, "You must be born again." And what makes you so certain of this? I'm fairly certain that Mother Teresa wasn't "born again", so are you suggesting that she is in Hell? You did say "...must...", not "...should...".
Same goes for Ghandi, and even the Virgin Mary for that matter...
Do you really thing she asked her son to forgive her sins? And if so, "why"?
See... Now we're back to those who died before Christ, as you said "...must...", implying that is the only way to salvation.
What about John the Baptist? Is he saved? Jesus hadn't died for his sins yet.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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If my belief is reasonable, why should I have to know/answer such questions? ie. "Do two year olds through temper tantrums..."
I know Jesus Christ, that is all I need to know.
Just like the thief on the cross...
What would you ask the thief on the cross(the one who asked Jesus to "remember me...")if you were one of the Roman guards?
"Hey thief on the cross...does a two year old throw temper tantrums in heaven?"
And if he doesn't answer would you call him "Willfully ignorant."?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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If my belief is reasonable, why should I have to know/answer such questions? ie. "Do two year olds through temper tantrums..."
I know Jesus Christ, that is all I need to know.
Just like the thief on the cross...
What would you ask the thief on the cross(the one who asked Jesus to "remember me...")if you were one of the Roman guards?
"Hey thief on the cross...does a two year old throw temper tantrums in heaven? You obviously, or willfully, are not understanding the question regarding the 2 year old. Go back and reread, as it really isn't that difficult... You answered the one about the infants, and the followup with 2 year olds was to show that your answer was absurd?
Now you are throwing a tantrum regarding that question. (hehe)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Just to humor you...
What makes you think that the perceived baggage of a soul that has existed on earth for 50-60 years would be superior to that of a soul that has not experienced "the world". And like I said, they would both have perfect peace(after all, they are in heaven).
And I am going by what I know of Hades and Paradise(this is not yet heaven and hell). Of Lazerus and the rich man. The rich man was doing all the talking, Lazarus seemed very content.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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Adam, what are you hoping to accomplish?
As you pointed out in your very first post to this thread, it is irrational to argue with someone whom no evidence could ever dissuade.
Are you being just as irrational?
Or are you just having fun, like Largo? Like DMT said to me days ago here, and years ago at rc.com: "I like fighting windmills".
I often can't help but mount Rocinante, grab my lance, and attack what seems like easy pickings (Young Earth, Creationism), and get carried away as I just can't understand how people can hold such obviosly absurd beliefs so 'confidently'.
In other words... I'm an idiot, and a glutton for pain and frustration.
I "HOPE" to inspire some to just peer outside of their box of dogma enough to objectively look for other sources... The bigger picture... To use a little of that 'God given ability to reason'. If they do it themselves, they should see the absurdity and adjust their beliefs accordingly. I have helped a few to do this so far, so it isn't in vain, but it is painfull, as I ain't too patient, and I do not suffer fools gladly.
Like my wife says:
"Hey, what I believe makes no sense, but it makes me feel good at times."
I support her, as she is reasonable about it. She is a Cathy by birth and family, but is really a Protty but doesn't know it.
Edit: I jacked this reply up by accidently editting it and replacing it with the one below, and had to reconstruct it. Thought I hit a 'quote' button like at rc.com.
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