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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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on topic here now.
the process theologian i know is pierre teilhard de chardin. i've tried to get largo to talk a little about the one he knows, but he won't. as i said, that process kaboodle from whitehead strikes me as the religious version of carl rogers. god gets to become a person. give him some space, i'm sure he'll be beautiful. sorry, god isn't the all-powerful guy in the sky with the long beard--we were only kidding about that.
anyway, teilhard's big premise tells us where we're going. not that far from the gospel according to tripl. teilhard's point omega is the culmination, the apotheosis of all consciousness. we're heading there with our wars, our arguments, our love. the closer we get, the more the tension mounts. you'll find some of the tension in your fingers on the keyboard and the flaming in your heart.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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if you start it, werner, i'll be there, but don't look for largo to show up.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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weschrist, you'll find more than 1000 architects and engineers here, with their professional reputations on the line: www.ae911truth.org
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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OK... Let's look at this:1). Yes!
2). God has a perfect plan for everyone of His creation. The unborn "fetus'" soul will be present with God as a fully developed spirit, aware of all that the good Lord feels is necessary for it to be aware of. (my opinion).
Aware of Gods love and the incredible love and peace and bliss that is Paradise. That is, union with Christs Spirit.
I don't know what anyone thinks or say's. The Bible describes it as a "sleep" or "rest". Time probably doesn't exist, it is most likely the intense/bliss of the perfect NOW...as in "I could be like this for eternity and not want anything else".
When Jesus returns with His saints at the Second Coming, the infant or fetus will have a new, fully grown spiritual body, "and thus forever be with the Lord."
So, some of this is in the Bible, other is speculation on my part. I am not particularlly concerned about the particulars, we are not told, or meant to know ALL of the mystery's. And I am not a pastor, or Bible scholar...
These questions are of minimal concern to me. What is important is the available presence and relationship that I have NOW with God.
#1 You believe that all you are aware of now, your memories and experiences will be with you in Heaven.
#2 Yet here, you won't quite acknowledge that what you have another soul will not, thus your "soul" will be of qualitative difference than the soul of an infant.
What about the soul of a 2 year old... Will it be self-centered, and through tantrums?
As to that, AND the rest... You confidently believe in all of that "magic" on your own speculation? Or the speculation of others in the past that you have internalized to be fact. THAT is what a "Myth" is my friend.
You have more questions, not just 2.
Here's another one... Since you quote scripture in a manner that implies you believe it is perfect and inerrant:
Since God created man (Adam) in his own image, does that mean he has a penis? An Anus? Eyes? Hands? What does he use them for? And what color do you suppose his eyes are?
See... You hit the nail on the head...I am not particularlly concerned about the particulars, we are not told, or meant to know ALL of the mystery's. And I am not a pastor, or Bible scholar...
You are not concerned with the particulars, so you don't think about them, or question them in any way... You even ignore the ones that don't make sense or compete with what you 'want to believe' is true, as evidenced by your proactivly ignoring the other questions you've been asked. Worse, you admit that you are not a Biblical scholar, yet you ignore and deny what most Biblical scholars have to say. THAT is willful ignorance.
You even said your self, the Bible says:The Bible describes it as a "sleep" or "rest". That's pretty clear.
Yet you come up with your own idea:Time probably doesn't exist, it is most likely the intense/bliss of the perfect NOW...as in "I could be like this for eternity and not want anything else". Based on "what"? The way you 'want' things to be.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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you're not a very patient guy, rrradam, that's pretty obvious. i'm not going to email you unless you promise to reply. this stuff has to be gone over nitpick-style and it isn't a lot of fun.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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Replying goes both ways... When I offer a detailed rebuttle of what you say, you have to acknowledge it, by either offering your own counter, or accepting that you were wrong. You have ignored EVERYTHING I have offered thus far.
Do you disagree with this statement? If so, then please show me where you have addressed what I've said in reply to some of your assertions.
I have no interest in having someone repeat the same things as fact, when they can be shown to be wrong. It is analgous to what we are going through in this thread with some of the Fundies... Quoting scripture as fact, without understanding the details.
And very true... I am often not patient... Tis one of my character defects (step 6).
I will address items, point by point with you, if you like... You can start by addressing the points I have made thus far, in reply to some of your assertions and misunderstandings, and downright false statements.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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The fool rrrrAdam never read the official govt. NIST documents nor the 9/11 commission report.
In those documents it's re reveled by their own admission how everything was covered up. Sorry... Last reply...
Werner... Those documents are available online, right? Please quote where it says this, and provide a link please.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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rrrADAM- "You wrote 'Jesus is the one true God' Who did Jesus fall prostrate to, and pray all his life..."
Malachi 2:10 "Have we all not one Father? Did not one God create us?"
"All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: The virgin will be with child and give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel-which means, "God with us."
Doubting Thomas saw the nail prints in His hands and said "My Lord and my God..." John 20:28
There are numerous verses that point to Jesus' deity and the concept of the doctrine of the Trinity. I am not going to spend the whole day attempting to convince you of this. Ask Him Yourself, He is quit willing to proove it to you if you ask Him with a sincere and open heart, Bro!!!
Edit: "Then God said 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." Genesis 1:26
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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interesting about michael shermer, founder of the skeptics society, wes, to which i believe fructose here belongs.
schermer started out a christian theology major at pepperdine university, a pretty conservative place. then he saw the light, or the dark, depending on where you stand around here. he went on to claremont, next door to griffin, getting a phd not in any of the sciences but in history of science, dealing with alfred wallace, a spiritualist evolutionist. schermer's agenda has always been trying to get people to believe in a scientific orthodoxy, never dealing much in science himself.
i'll have to repeat what i said previously. the best philosophers of science are very good scientists, familiar with the cutting edge of their field, who take it on themselves to address philosophical aspects of their work to the general public. my favorite in physics is gordon kane. can't follow much from stephen hawking, but he tries, and it isn't easy.
it's interesting that schermer spent 10 years as a professional competitor in long-distance bicycling. i won't draw conclusions about that, but it may attest to some built-in stubbornness, familiar to us in mountaineering.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: The virgin will be with child and give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel-which means... Now we're potentially getting somewhere... And you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin "why"?
Where was Jesus' birth prophecized in the OT? Are you going to quote Isaiah? I hope so, as this will get interesting, and you will once again be forced to "Ignore and Deny".
Note - It's in bold for a reason.
And you haven't answered the question... Either Jesus is the "ONE true God" or he isn't. If he is that God, then you suggest that he prayed to himslef? Whe he cried out on the cross, asking why God "had foresaken him", then you are suggesting that he didn't know that was ther plan all along? (He asked "why", remember?) There is either ONE God, or there are more than one. As I said earlier, the Trinity is a human construct that came about in the 4th century. It's eay for you to overlook when you are not interested in the particulars, and don't question anything.
And he saw "nail prints in his hands" it is a pretty stupid made-up eye-witness account, as a nail the hands would not hold someone's weight, which is why most agree that the nail would have been through the wrist.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
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this stuff has to be gone over nitpick-style and it isn't a lot of fun. That's what I do for a living, brutha.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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Given the Scientific Story (aka the Epic of Evolution), can you build anything (e.g., an inspiring narrative or narratives) on it or with it that is positive and/or prescriptive and/or directional and/or life-affirming in any way. That's a $64M question I hope the 21st century gives some of its attention to.
P.S. One more thought: Does anyone besides me and Go-B think atheists could improve their game?
Sometimes I feel hammered from both sides. I wish atheists could see that they are their own worst enemy sometimes in moving forward.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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I dunno. Some would think our sending rockets and people to the moon, sequencing our DNA, cloning stem cells to cure disease, or finding out the universe is accelerating to be inspiring. The best moment actually comes the instant you realize you now know how to do something that stumped you yesterday.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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jan--
appreciate your comments on noneuropean languages. i once did a short article on what the vietnamese do in the vein of "ma ma ma ma ..." i think they have more pitches than anyone, and they love to cook up elaborate little stories which sound to westerners a lot like the repetition of a single syllable.
mariko and i happened to stroll through the garden of a buddhist temple the other day, just killing time before a concert started across the street. there was a statue of shinran there, the founder of "pure land" buddhism--is that the one you mention above? anyway, this dude lived about the time of st. francis in europe and wound up living a life a lot like francis's, the mendicant holy man, romantically wandering from adventure to adventure in the name of his particular spiritual package. the memorable thing, for me, about shinran was that he did not exclude "bad" people from heaven. no, he said, bad people need heaven even more than good people (!!!!!!!)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
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Given the Scientific Story (aka the Epic of Evolution), can you build anything (e.g., an inspiring narrative or narratives) on it or with it that is positive and/or prescriptive and/or directional and/or life-affirming in any way. That's a $64M question I hope the 21st century gives some of its attention to.
P.S. One more thought: Does anyone besides me and Go-B think atheists could improve their game?
Sometimes I feel hammered from both sides. I wish atheists could see that they are their own worst enemy sometimes in moving forward.
whoaaa ... fructo is not an atheist?
anyway, teilhard did all that stuff you're asking for in your first paragraph.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Fructose-
Look up Brian Swimme and Thomas Berry.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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Tony-
The Japanese version of Tibetan Buddhism is called Shingon, founded by Kukai also know by the honorific of Kobo Daishi. This is different than the Pure Land Buddhism, Jodo Shinshu, of Shinran. Both men are fascinating to read about.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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i saw a movie about kukai. the only thing i remember was there was some kind of volcano erupting or earthquake or something and a bunch of men and women together about to become victims of a terrible disaster. no way out of it. what to do? kukai says, let's make love!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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He wrote: "
"Seems to me you might have gotten things off the ground a little smoother if you had simply stated upfront that you believe there are [objective] "powers" which exist separate from and beyond 'normal' human experience."
I didn't say that I "believe" any such thing, especially that these "powers" exist "separate from" anything. Where would they be?
Funny thing is people are fine with knowing it takes around twenty years to go from a bucolic state to where the brain is sufficiently trained to handle adult challenges, or that it might take a month to climb K2. But my little invitation to get quiet for A FEW MOMENTS shows (I knew I would probably get no takers) than most expect to get all the way to "God" without investing any time or effort at all, and merely want to "think" about it all, which to me is like thinking about face climbing or something. This is not serious exploration, IMO.
JL
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