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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:04am PT
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rrradam, i'm not going to look through your threads any more than you're going to look through mine or read all the books i've read or talk to all the experts i have questioned on this personally face-to-face. but i will read everything you have to post here. it's up to you to make it cogent.
so, dealing in the trivia you're citing here: building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner. airliners don't "knock" fireproofing off steel beams everywhere in a building. i doubt fireproofing gets knocked off at all, and big steel girders don't really need it anyway. jet fuel, which is essentially kerosene, doesn't burn hot enough to affect building steel significantly without sophisticated carburetion, as in a jet engine. the fires in the wtc were turning black, indicating oxygen depletion, as anyone would expect inside the confinements of a building. when that happens it means that the fires were getting cooler. even if the steel were weakened to the point of bending, things would sag and totter, not come down in rapid floor-by-floor blasts as could only happen with controlled floor-by-floor demolition. look at the videos. stop your own ignoring and denying.
You are wrong, on many points...
1. HOW is the fire going to be O2 depleted when the WTC was in essence a big open frame of steel beams and "windows", which were broken en masse on or near the floors where the fire was? Not to mention that there are more winds up there to 'fan the flames'? Ever see those BBQ briquette startes that are cylinders with holes in them you stuff newspapers into?
2. "You do 'think' a plane will knock off fireproofing..."? What makes you think that? It isn't sticky, soft and gooey... It is hard. What do you think would happen if you sprayed a thin layer of concrete on an I-Beam and then shocked that I-Beam? And it doesn't take "everywhere in a building..." All it takes is enough to weaken the structure. You aren't an engineer, are you?
More on 'fire proofing'... That's actually NOT the best term for the material, as it can't be made 'fire proof'. Out here at the nukes, we have 'fire proofing' as well, and I have to inspect it. The various types are rated in hours of protection (E.g., 2 hours, 3 hours 5 hours), as that is the time that the part will be protected until the 'fire proofing' fails. It gives the time to extinguish the fire before a critical system or componant fails. So... If that 'protection' is knocked off, even just a bit, that section isn't protected, and how long did the fires burn?
It IS this stuff, the details, that you are ignoring or dismissing my frind.
3. Again... The heat softened the metal to the point that it couldn't support the weight of ALL the weight above it. You tell me... How would you suppose it would fail if it gave way slowly until it couldn;t hold the weight? "Slowly... All the way to the ground"? "Slowly and gently until it rested on the next floor whick would hold it up?"
Let me put it this way, Tony...
What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong?
I mean no offense, but...
Like a Fundy, the answer is "nothing", isn't it?
Again... Everything you are posting has been thoroughly debunked and/or addressed, much of it in the thread I posted. Even bios on many of the founders of various '9/11 Truth' organizations, implying an egenda long before 9/11. Despite that, or ignoring that, you continue to cling to it. You cannot show someone who does not care to understand, as it is impossible to graft a new idea onto a closed mind. You have no new info for me, as EVERYTHING you have posted, and suggested thus far, I am familiar with. That's like a Xian telling me to read the Bible, then I will understand... I have read it my friend. Like Fundies, God/"9/11 Truth" hides in the gaps of knowledge (real, manufactured, or willful), and even as we close the gaps, many refuse to accept any of it to leave room for God/"9/11 Truth".
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:25am PT
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Norton- You esp would enjoy Agora, new film (starring Rachael Weisz as Hypatia) having to live amongst Jews, Christians, Pagans. Check it out. You probably know already who burned the great Library.
Oh, the film wasn't accepted on the U.S theater circuit. (Why? Hint: Too many Bluerings, Go-Bs, Trips, IDs, Fredricks, etc.) But was very popular in the more liberated Europe. But no worries there are other means of getting a hold of it.
"Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing."
~Hypatia of Alexandria (~400 CE)
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:47am PT
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He is a "jealous God"! And desires to be worshiped and known as the One and only God. "Jealousy"... God is "all that is 'GOOD', huh?" Never knew jealousy was a 'good' trait.
I've asked countless questions, trip, and you haven't answered any, so since it appears you trying to address some... Let's see if you will address these simple direct questions:
1. Do you believe that when your soul goes to Heaven you will keep all of of your memories and life experiences with you, similar to your waking conciousness?
2. If so, what would the memories, life experiences, and conciousness consist of in an infant's soul, or even the soul of a fetus who never was even born? (The infant and/or fetus died)
3. Regarding the above questions, and even your recent answers regarding the disposition/judgement of souls for those who never had the chance to know Jesus... WHERE are you getting your information? Specifically: Chapter and verse please, or name of the person who told you.
4. You wrote:...Jesus is the ONE true God... Who did Jesus fall prostrate to an pray all during his life, and to whom did he pray and cry out to while he was on the cross?
5. How do you account for all the other pagan deities popular long before and during the time of Jesus that share so many details with him? (E.g., Dionysus, Mithras, Attis, Horus, Apollo, etc...) Many of them were 'born of a virgin', 'resurrected' (even after 3 days), 'turned water into wine', 'walked on water', 'raised ther dead', and some were even called: 'redeemer', 'the light of the world', 'the shepard', etc...
(Note - This also provides the answer that you failed to get days ago about the relationship between Jesus and Sunday... As most of the above Gods were "solar deities" (Sun Gods), and what day of the week do you suppose one would worship 'Sun' Gods?)
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:41am PT
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Not to mention all the fire fighters that swear they heard a series of explosions, and then later were given orders not to discuss that ever again.
Please cite a firefighter that has said that he heard explosions and was told to never discuss it again.
And the Pentagon is a 'hardened structure' compared to the WTC, with much less open surfece area (broken windows) to allow for as hot of a fire, so you are mixing not even apples and oranges, but apples and tires.
Again... With any conspiracy, it only takes one for it to all come down...
Kennedy, Moon Landing, Pearl Harbor, Rosswell, Space ships on the far side of the moon, 9/11...
Find that one "proof". "Questions and inconsistancies (many manufactured)" aren't proof... If real, they only point to a gap in knowledge.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
~Carl Sagan
How about just some 'solid' evidence at least?
So you have to look at it logically. No steel building has ever fallen from a fire before or after this day. This has already been addressed in my previous post, yet you are ignoring it.
Here... Since a picture is worth a thousand words, maybe a video is worth ten thousand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MRSr1MnFuk&feature=player_embedded
It's of other steel structures and buildings collapsing from fire alone, so that claim "no other..." IS FALSE!
Note that this was made before the Gulf Horizon that just burned, collapsed and sank. Do you suppose that was made of plastic?
Pay attention to the last slide:Therefore, it can be said that 100% of all steel-framed skyscrapers with unprotected steel that have been subjected to fire for prolonged periods have collapsed.
But you'll still keep saying it, huh?
re: pancake, and falling straight down...
I'll take it you are a climber, so...
Let's say you have placed a piece that will hold little more than body weight (we'll even say it's over-engineered [buildings are over-engineered], and it will hold 3 X your BW). Then you fall on it from 10' above, will it hold? Now, if all other pieces will hold similar weight, will you pull all the pieces all the way down?
And steel framed buildings are not designed with each floor below made to hold more weight... That's the way that old masonry and concrete buildings were designed, which is why they were bigger at the base, and had a theoretical hieght limit du to the base being so big that there was no usable space at the bottom. Steel did away with that.
And, the WTC was not designed to be hit by a plane of that size (mass, fuel load), traveling at that speed (inertial energy).
So, it appears that you don't really understand the physics of any of this.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 09:36am PT
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you know, i had a pretty good reply written up for rrrad, and along comes jolly roger, taking most of the words out of my mouth.
i had this same experience on a jobsite about four years ago. you don't broach this subject easily among your average bunch of carpenters and tradesmen. then i found the fella i'd been working alongside for a month knew all about it. what put him onto it? he was living in seattle when they made a public event of the controlled demolition of an old stadium. same stuff going on.
yes, we can always member-to-member and leave this thread to the philorelgio, but as gnarlydude climbers and citizens of a nation and a world, i don't think it's entirely out of place. two of david ray griffin's titles, which i think pertain to this crowd especially: "christian faith and the truth behind 9/11: a call to reflection and action", and "debunking 9/11 debunking".
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 09:52am PT
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another jobsite experience. think of it in the context of "from the mouths of babes":
it was the anniversary of 9/11 a couple years ago. most of us in the truth movement are pretty sensitized on that day. so i'm talking a little with a stucco laborer from mexico.
"do you really know what happened on that day? do you think arabs did it?"
"no. government did it."
"how do you know?"
"airplanes can't bring down buildings. airplanes are light."
foreigners don't have the emotional investment in this that americans have. virtually all of italy is quite cool on the subject, in a cool way. former president francesco cossiga disclosed in a national interview a couple years ago that most intelligence agencies around the world understand that 9/11 was an inside job. said my tuscan cousin: "if cossiga said so, then i believe it. he was a totally honest president."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 22, 2010 - 10:25am PT
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Again, please take the 9/11 talk to another thread - this isn't the place for it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 10:57am PT
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rrrADAM- "Never new jealousy was a good trait."
"You shall not make for yourself an idol...You shall not worship them or serve them; For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:4-5
The root idea in the O.T. word jealous is to become intensely red. The changing color of the face which are associated with intense zeal or fervor over something which is dear to us. Both the Old and the New Testament words for jealous are also translated as "zeal".
Being jealous and being zealous are essentially the same thing in the Bible. God is zealous-eager about protecting what is precious to Him.
I consider this a "good trait" when it is applied in this context.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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Ummm... Are you gonna answer my simple direct questions? You jealous zealous man.
I even numbered them for you... So you can number your answers.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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i sent an email to rrradam to that effect, healyje, but i haven't heard back from him yet.
as i said a couple posts ago, i don't think it's entirely out of place here, especially from the point of view of mythic thinking. somehow we all seem to think in myths, no matter how logical we try to be. academics are especially good at this. they'll come up with a word like "qualia" and start bandying it about as if it's the answer to everything.
is truth itself a myth? would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
let's just suppose i'm wrong about 9/11. i'm a fairly smart guy and i've spent lots of mental and emotional energy on this for six years now. david ray griffin, largo's former philosophy professor, has done the same. half the world is telling us we're over the left field fence, the other half comes into our camp and starts agreeing with us. if you're going to nail down god, especially a jealous god, and consciousness the way you guys are trying to do, you might find yourselves drowning in a similar niagara.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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rrrA- "1&2".
1). Yes!
2). God has a perfect plan for everyone of His creation. The unborn "fetus'" soul will be present with God as a fully developed spirit, aware of all that the good Lord feels is necessary for it to be aware of. (my opinion).
Aware of Gods love and the incredible love and peace and bliss that is Paradise. That is, union with Christs Spirit.
I don't know what anyone thinks or say's. The Bible describes it as a "sleep" or "rest". Time probably doesn't exist, it is most likely the intense/bliss of the perfect NOW...as in "I could be like this for eternity and not want anything else".
When Jesus returns with His saints at the Second Coming, the infant or fetus will have a new, fully grown spiritual body, "and thus forever be with the Lord."
So, some of this is in the Bible, other is speculation on my part. I am not particularlly concerned about the particulars, we are not told, or meant to know ALL of the mystery's. And I am not a pastor, or Bible scholar...
These questions are of minimal concern to me. What is important is the available presence and relationship that I have NOW with God.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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Hey guys
Why don't you all start a new 911 thread where we can all kill each other in it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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if anyone needs a carpenter or an uncertified climbing guide, i'm available today. otherwise i'll be an idle drone, tapping keys, working on the yard.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:29am PT
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been thinking of doing that, werner. will you bring your weapons?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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Thanks for the reply in regard to "distinguishing" god concepts.
Well, no one mentioned it (I guess it's drawing distinction from another perspective) but it is useful to distinguish between Jehovah (the higher power of Jews, Muslims and Christians) and Diacrates (the hypothetical higher power or higher intelligence philosophers, scientists, et al like to discuss as a possibility). It gives some traction to the thinking.
Also, it is useful to distinguish between monotheism and polytheism (two more "god concepts") and then ask is one really any more intellectually mature than the other as generations of Christians, for e.g., were taught.
In the movie Agora, you'll see a good portrayal of how thoughlessness leads to recklessness and how the beautiful Hypatia was set upon by Christians obedient to their God Jehovah, who felt they were doing God's work. Poor Hypatia. (The fate of the Library of Alexandria was discussed pretty thoroughly on another thread.)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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tripl, you just might be a prophet yourself. they'll be quoting tripl 3:16-21 a hundred years from now. keep making it up!
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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Out of respect for this thread, and people who don't wish to see this banal discussion, this'll be my last reply regarding "9/11 Truthers"...
After replying earlier, I asked a colleague here at work who was a demolitions expert in the Army, and he's pretty anti-government, if he thought there was any chance that the WTCs were brought down by explosives. He looked at me like I had a d|ck growing out of my forehead and said, "Hell no! Look at the videos... It was structural failure brought on by the fire. Anybody, like Rosie O'Donnel, that thinks otherwise is insane! Now the Oklahoma Federal building is another story all together..."
Note - There can be smart people who are insane, so even if a PhD wants to lend his name to it, still doesn't make it so. Remember, Francis Collins (Human Genome project), is a Fundy who denies evolution, and that doesn't make it so. Like him, Fundies and "Truthers" are in a fringe minority for a reason. And ALL are convinced that they are right, and everybody else is wrong, even though they cannot come up with an even remotely reasonable alternative. (E.g., "God did it" / real planes switched with remote control planes [air traffic controllers and the Air Force gotta be in on this one], vanishing passengers [murdered by the Gubment?], thousands of people sworn to secrecy... c'mon.)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:35am PT
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WB!
If I worked in a hi-rise i would consider bringing a B.A.S.E chute to work. Or something to wrap with etc. Maybe even get permission to test it all out a few dozen times!
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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Tony... I can't access my rc.com email from work, which is where to P2P goes. Try rrradam[at]advancedphysics.org, although I am more than likely going to direct you to that thread, or at least replies in it, as ALL of this has been addressed there, AND you haven't even answered the questions I've asked you, yet I have addressed somethings in great detail, yet you have not addressed those either. I am not patient enough to just continue to repeat myself to someone who isn't even listening.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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Don't need any weapons Tony.
The fool rrrrAdam never read the official govt. NIST documents nor the 9/11 commission report.
In those documents it's re reveled by their own admission how everything was covered up.
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