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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Fructose, Is Rachael hot?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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We’re not talking about a belief in the normal sense of the word, nor are we talking about “God,” for the moment you attach that label, you’ll project all of your ideas on the experience, and the All is not your ideas. You follow.
Ya I follow, more BS to allow the unexplainable mumbo jumbo
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I think the frustration inherent in the above pretty much underscores the limitations of quantifying.
It is the promise or hope of science that physical reality is knowable and to an ever widening degree, it is explainable and predictable as well. Perhaps not in any absolute sense, owing to random and chaotic and other factors, but we all understand the basic principal. What you see above, is how the evaluating mind revolts or recoils with that which might possibly fall out of the purview of pure matter or forward causation. I mention forward causation because even the most hard core materialist has to
concede the existence of qualia, a philosophy of mind term to describe the subjective quality of conscious experience. Nobody with working facilities will insist that subjective experience is the selfsame thing as material, but forward causation models allow us to postulate that qualia is sourced from or is "caused" by material, namely, our evolved brain.
The fact is, we cannot quantify qualia itself as we quantify a stack of marbles or an event horizon. Even a staunch critic of qualia modeling, Daniel Dennett, admits that qualia is "an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us."
The great limitation to Dennett's and others definition of qualia is in limiting it to strictly subjective experience - to feelings, sensations, and so forth. More on that later.
Anyway, I use qualia as just an example of something we all know better than matter itself, but which is not measurable in the normal sense. Now this is just a baby step, but insofar that we cannot quantify qualia like we can matter, does it atomatically follow that qualia is "more BS," "unexplainable," and "mumbo jumbo."
No, I'm NOT sang qualia is God. Not at all. This is simply a thought experiment.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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So, Largo, would you be open to distinguishing / defining a few "god concepts" -just a few- so we could talk about them with a little more depth, meaning?
Norton- Very!
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pa
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Jstan, from your link:
The sequence of syllables is not random at all and has a striking resemblance with the structure of human language.
Food for thought indeed.
Also, did you encode your prayer in the Junk DNA...'cause if you didn't, your prayer will not be answered.
HFCS, yes, "cadere" does mean to fall and "cadentia"is synonymous of the word "chance", as in "let the chips fall where they may".
But you are still talking about chance beginnings to "not random at all" manifestations.
I still ask: How do you start with chance and end up with order?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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"How do you start with chance and end up with order? "
May I take a cut at this?
What do you really mean by "order?" If by order you mean something in this world with which you are familiar, then
you will always end up
with order.
If we assume Darwin was on to something and if we assume flight would have had great survival value for pigs, then every day you would be seeing pigs that fly and, to you,
pigs that fly would represent order.
Dinosaurs did learn to fly
after all.
You see them every day without a
second thought.
Joe:
Have tried it before. Has not worked for me yet. The quote delimiters don't show up.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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First and foremost I wanted to recommend you folks to consider using the forum editor's quote capability. When in the post editor there is a menu bar at the top left of the editor's main textbox. The 4th button from the left is labeled with a double quote - that's the quote function - click it and paste a quote from someone else in between the quote delimiters which appear to create a quote box. This by itself would help the conversation immensely.
As for contributing, I've been in all day vendor meetings for a major RFP and will be again tomorrow so I have limited ability to follow along.
But, despite Largo's prejudice against your basic 'god' and attempts to frame this as something other than religion, I think we've pretty conclusively shown this is in fact a religious discussion given everyone involved is projecting belief onto the current unknown of from 'where' or by what means do 'thoughts' and perceptions arise.
First and foremost I'm all about acknowledging when something is unknown and honoring that by not projecting comforting speculation on to it and calling that a 'fact' (pretty much the whole of the history of religion). After that I am up for speculating so long as everyone concerned is willing to accept that is what's going on. From that perspective all ancient and modern fables from all points and times in human existence which purport to know 'the way' or 'the answers' are just that regardless of the human[s] who claimed to be gifted by [the] god[s] as the one 'annointed' to carry the message to humanity. All human religions throughout history are equal in their fabrication of comfort for very real human fears (more qualia).
And I don't know how many of you have any mental health background or experience, but it should be noted that the first miracle of being human is the miracle that we all share a very similar mental/emotional profile that defines what being human is. If you've been involved with various mental illnesses at all then you understand just what a miracle it is that we are all operating on more or less the same 'plane of existence' and can communicate with each other at all.
This also speaks to the chemical origins of 'thought' and the qualia you meditators perceive as the capabilities, perceptions, and benefits of your practice. Give me those humans with the most experience meditating from around the world and I can remove that capability and experience in between 14 and 21 days with a course of Nardil in the manic direction or one of haldol, stelazine, and thorazine in the zombie direction. There is no one who would be 'meditating' by the the 21st day no matter who they are or how many lifetimes of meditation they've experienced. The mental and emotional state you call 'living' is an incredibly fragile thing and is wholly dependent on your having a 'normal' and 'stable' neurochemical 'profile'.
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pa
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:09pm PT
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Jstan, clarification is in order...pun intended.
By "order" I was referring to the marvelous one described by the sciences: the spin of electrons, say, or the regulation of insulin release, or fractals, or the table of elements...and such.
See if that helps...and I am not expecting answers, you know that, I am just interested in other peoples take on the matter.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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At least now we know what he looks like....
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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At the risk of talking too much, the regulation of insulin release is now in a state of great disorder. When the body's present processes were being evolved processed sugars did not exist. Now, thanks to Earl Butz's effort to reduce the cost of calories in the US people are assaulting themselves with HFCS in quantities our bodies cannot handle. American's increasingly waddle instead of walking.
A link:
A 1991 study stated that the number of Americans with diabetes would double, from 6.5 million in 1987 to 11.6 million by 2030, which, as it turns out, is less than half the number of cases in 2009. "These projections stress the importance of prevention and education," the authors declare. "The requisite change in life style, exercise, or nutrition habits will be more difficult than if a drug is developed for treatment."
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/172356.php
Edit:
pa:
I know the door is open. But I think order is an important property in everyone's mind. So I am trying to speak to that generally.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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Norton- "Also, two weeks ago, I saw a women beat her dog and I was consumed
with ANGER. And so, again, I have committed a major sin, this time MURDER."
Norton, you already told us about that a few days ago!
And I responded with:
"Norton, you had cause to be angry at the women who beat her dog. It would be tantamount to Jesus' righteous anger at the money changers(who were cheating and inflating costs etc.)in the Temple."
Your cool with JESUS in regards to that one little buddy!
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pa
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Thanks Jstan, but you are knocking on an open door, as we say back home. Worked ER and ICU for 20+ years. I am well aware of how many different ways we can (and do) screw up the "order" of our bodies.
What is your point?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:04am PT
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”Norton- You esp would enjoy Agora, new film (starring Rachael Weisz as Hypatia) having to live amongst Jews, Christians, Pagans. Check it out. You probably know already who burned the great Library.”
“Oh, the film wasn't accepted on the U.S theater circuit. (Why? Hint: Too many Bluerings, Go-Bs, Trips, IDs, Fredricks, etc.) But was very popular in the more liberated Europe. But no worries there are other means of getting a hold of it.”
Agora is …certainly enertainment…and the fact it’s not 100% history may not bother liberated Europeans. The Great Library of Alexandria, of course, was burned, by Ceasar, during his visit to Alexandria in 48 BC. Plutarch and several other historians in the first and second century AD suggest the Great Library was a thing of the past.
In 391, Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all "pagan" (non-Christian) temples and Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and his mobs destroyed the Serapeum on the former site of the Great Library. The Serapeum being a temple for worship of the god Mithras and ritual shedding of animal blood.
The historian Ammianus Marcellinus claims whatever books might have been in the Serapeum earlier, none were there at the last of the fourth century. If there were any significant numbers of books therein , the collection was nothing approaching the Great Library before it’s destruction in 48 BC. Socrates Scholasticus, makes no clear reference to scrolls or codex being lost, only to religious objects being destroyed. Eunapius of Sardis witnessed the temple being destroyed, his account of the Serapeum's destruction makes no mention of any library.
There is really no evidence, in historical texts or archaeologically, of a Christian destruction of any “great library” in Alexandria.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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HF wrote: "So, Largo, would you be open to distinguishing / defining a few "god concepts" -just a few- so we could talk about them with a little more depth, meaning?"
Sure, but I'm tired so just a few thoughts. I've been trying to warm up to this for a few weeks now.
First, in my experience, I've found that you have to romance the whole spiritual thing inasmuch as I can't impose the criteria on the process and expect "God" to conform to or meet that criteria (any more than i can tell a girl how to behave and expect to ever strike up the band).
The old saw that you must die to yourself to find yourself speaks to this.
Also, humility is a huge one. If you're trying to find a power greater than yourself, it won't help much by letting fly a self with a bunch of demands that, if not met perfectly, starts yelling bullshit and so forth. What's more, you have to know that going in, the evaluating mind will probably hold you back if you let that part of your software direct the proceedings.
Again, another old saw, that you cannot think your way to heaven, is appropriate to consider.
Your evaluating mind will certainly grind over whatever experiences you have, but you cannot expect that mind to "source" the experiences themselves.
Lastly, it helps to start with the idea that you're not, at least initially, moving toward some "thing" called God, but am opening yourself up to experience a paradox, the direct experience of which will almost certainly be limited by trying to grasp "it," reason "it" out, or assigning the process to merely believing or making a leap of faith. So the first thing, paradoxically, is to not consciously look for, or try discover ANYTHING.
Now almost immediately the mind will start making demands and crying foul because the evaluating mind has no capacity to generate "being" energy and doesn't know what to do if it isn't evaluating and grinding on something. So expect that part of your mind to start yelling what a wast of time it all is etc.
The idea or metaphor of container space is particularly helpful here, whereas all the content, including the crazy and impatient judgements about your experience, can be seen as so much white noise.
So that's the start. Maybe spend just five minutes with your eyes open and suspend all effort to go anywhere and do anything or find anything. Astonishingly, a lot of people have never done this their entire life.
More later.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:19am PT
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TripL7
You did not address my question at all.I don't doubt that every normally functioning person on the planet has the opportunity to think about the mystery and beauty of life. If those who were/are grateful and believe in some form of God are ok in the greater scheme of eternity, as you seem to be suggesting, that would be good news indeed.
However, the example you gave of Rahab has nothing to do with God and everything to do with supporting the Jews in a military campaign. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahab
Jews are very interesting people with a remarkable history, but they are not God, so I fail to see the connection?!
As to why contemporary Hindus and Buddhists and people with no religion might or might not also be acceptable to God was mentioned, is because the fundamentalist Christian condemnation of those people for not being believers creates the impression that fundamentalists believe all people who were/are not Jews or Christians were/are doomed. Hence Anders and many others I'm sure, got that impression.
Meanwhile the question remains. Do you think that people of good will and good behavior who belong to religions other than fundamental Christianity, living since the time of Jesus, are acceptable to God or not, particularly if they've never even heard of Jesus?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:24am PT
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And if they're not acceptable to god, why not?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:42am PT
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Good idea JL:
So that's the start. Maybe spend just five minutes with your eyes open and suspend all effort to go anywhere and do anything or find anything. Astonishingly, a lot of people have never done this their entire life.
I tried to express a point of view on this topic in my earlier post regarding fish arguing about the nature of water...that little discourse seems to have been water running off ducks backs...
When I teach students how to read tracks in the woods, they first have to learn to keep their minds quiet so as to be aware of what is there. Words and music in their heads get in the way of seeing the tracks.
It also works for climbing...
And it worked for Christ in the desert. IMHO he would not be at all impressed by all the churches and writings and discussions ostensibly carried out in his name.
I'd rather not appear any dumber than my natural attributes, but language is a particularly inappropriate tool for understanding this general topic.
This seems to have become a brilliant exercise in intelligent discourse, while also being particularly unimpressive in demonstrating understanding of the title topic. It is absolutely amazing the things that people are willing to believe in order to fill in the mysteries of the gaps in their awareness and understanding.
A better method is to quiet the mind and expand awareness. This is made particularly difficult by all the pain and pollution and noise in our society. That is a major attraction to wilderness.
We have very much to learn. Chattering is an interesting way of exploring ground that is already explored. The domain of the chatter also nicely maps out the limits of our understanding, if you can step back and look at it from a quiet space.
Awareness is a precursor to capturing knowledge into language. Language lacks words for observing and capturing some sorts of knowledge domains. It is just not the appropriate tool for capturing all knowledge, however iconoclastic that may appear in the halls of academia.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:07am PT
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Awareness is a precursor to capturing knowledge into language. Language lacks words for observing and capturing some sorts of knowledge domains. It is just not the appropriate tool for capturing all knowledge, however iconoclastic that may appear in the halls of academia.
That has been one of my major points here however inadequately expressed. The artist who puts something on canvass that moves others emotionally is not using the same sort of knowledge as the art critic who then discusses the painting in words.
Beyond that, the very language we use determines the organization of our brains, something very obvious to those of us who have struggled with non European languages like Tibetan and Japanese. A language that can make a sentence like Ma ma ma ma? mean why is the woman beating the horse with a rope? is not a language that can manipulate intricate ideas in the style we've seen here. It can however express puns, poetry, and word jokes far better. It also encourages intuition and musical ability.Hence 30% of Chinese have perfect pitch.
One of the biggest challenges facing inhabitants of the modern West in my view, is the attitude by the word experts that their type of knowledge is always superior. The very question, is it logical to believe in God? is such an example, assuming as it does, that logic is the highest form of knowledge.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:40am PT
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...If you're trying to find a power greater than yourself...
Largo, it's good to finally see something tangible and explicit about what you really want to discuss for a change. I'm fine talking about most anything once I know what's really on someone's mind.
Seems to me you might have gotten things off the ground a little smoother if you had simply stated upfront that you believe there are [objective] "powers" which exist separate from and beyond 'normal' human experience. Then a discussion could have easily followed about how one can or does experience, perceive, embrace, and integrate such "powers" into their life. Still not sure what the intent of, or need for, all the artful beating around the bush was about.
I can only guess you were attempting to separate that conversation from your typical god-talk, but as we're seeing that's a pretty tall order at the taco stand.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 05:26am PT
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Jan!
Anyone that has not heard of Jesus could not ask Him into their heart, or worship Him as God!
So they would not be judged on that basis, or held accountable in that way.
But God does reveal Him self like it describes in Romans. And that is how He would judge them. If they chose to set up idols of clay or wood, of calves or snakes etc. Or worshiped other men, or individuals from the past, or ancestors etc., then that is what it was saying in Romans. They would be worshiping the creation, not the Creator.
God is a just and righteous God. He has treated all of His creation fairly from the beginning of time. Loved them just as much as He loves you and me.
The three wise men(magi)from the East, were not of Hebrew descent, and they were considered holy. As was the King of Salem. Those are just a couple of examples.
As far as Rahab is concerned, she must have contemplated the true nature of God in her heart by the evidence she saw in creation etc., long before they(Jericho)were surrounded and captured.
There are many other examples, like the lady at the well(Samaritan woman)and the Ethiopian eunuch.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 05:41am PT
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Mighty Hiker- "And if they are not acceptable to god, why not?"
Well, if they have chose to not believe that Jesus is the ONE true God, and choose to put Him on the same level/plane as Mohammad, or Allah, or Buddha etc. then they have rejected His lordship in their lives.
He is a "jealous God"! And desires to be worshiped and known as the One and only God.
He will make this evident in your heart if you allow Him to.
It's late and I am tired...sorry!
Goodnight!
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