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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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aw, lynne--largo's a big guy. he can take it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:30pm PT
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it also says lucy's great-grandfather was 400,000 years older than she was--that'd make about 100,000 years per generation. maybe god is really australopithecemorphic.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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We will never get a straight answer out of this bird, methinks. But as he is able to turn a phrase with the best of them, all I can say is, "That will do pig."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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Whatever else, it seems pretty clear that Lucy was about half of Largo's height, and about a quarter of his weight.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
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Dr. F: I’m still not sure what your honest question is.
But you did say: “…your belief system is the right one, only you are open minded enough to see the real truth.”
Kindly jot out my beliefs for me, according to what I have written. Ever heard of the word, “projection.”
Now you did say something very interesting: “…believe in the undefined something that is not a thing – God."
Except IMO you have two things worth reconsidering. We’re not talking about a belief in the normal sense of the word, nor are we talking about “God,” for the moment you attach that label, you’ll project all of your ideas on the experience, and the All is not your ideas. You follow. Also notice how your brain is itching to quantify something. No harm in that, but where has it gotten you per spiritual goals save a very pessimistic stance? Perhaps you have run up against the limitation of quantifying. Is there anything beyond quantifying/measuring, or this the only avenue you can imagine worth exploring? That is a crucial point/distinction.
Tony wrote:
Largo is a "process" theologian. this bunk was made up by an english academic named alfred north whitehead to try to salvage mainstream anglicanism in places like oxford and cambridge, trick it out in effete mumbo-jumbo, and feed it to hardworking church pastors just trying to make a living the way they did when charles dickens wrote a lot more interesting things.
Where do you people come up with this shite? I studied Process Philosophy quite a bit because that was the focus where I went to grad school. But I’m not a hard core Whiteheadian, first, because I didn’t do PhD work on him, and second, Whitehead is first and foremost a mathematician and I’m not. But there’s virtually no one in academic philolsophy that would ever call Whitehead “effete,” nor yet claim that a book like “Process and Reality” was written for Anglican preachers. Arguing these points is ludicrous.
More later. I have a deadline. I very much want to address John Satndard’s post.
JL
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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Dr. F your statements are conflicting, do you believe there is any possibility there is a god(s)?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
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i just made it up, john. it was a trick question. but the rabbit is still hiding in the bushes.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
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This latest fossil find is just one more indicator that human ancestry is complex with many branches and dead ends along the way. The more fossils we find the more this appears to be the case.
The article cited was rather clumsily written, which often happens when scientists try to popularize something for the general public. In this case the author tried to personalize his example and did no one a favor by his g-g-g grandfather analogy to explain a 400,000 year gap?!
Criticizing anthropologists for revising their theories based on new evidence at this stage of our understanding, is a bit like criticizing someone fitting a jigsaw puzzle together for not knowing yet where all the individual pieces go.
Personally, I think our understanding of whether or not there is a God and what that God might be, is currently at about the same level.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 21, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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Actually Largo's reply is straight out of Buddhist history.
The Hindu pantheon at the time Buddha lived was very similar to the Greek and Roman pantheon. After all, Sanskrit is closely related to Greek and Latin as all belong to the same Indo European tribe.
To try to get people away from such anthropomorphic conceptions, Buddha preferred not to specify how many God(s) there were or any specific attributes, a tradition Buddhism has continued.
There are many terms for Ultimate Reality in that religion depending on the sect- Nothingness, Emptiness, Original mind, One mind, No mind, Non Duality, the Cosmic Realm of Dharma, the Cosmic Buddha, the One without a Second, the Great Being of Radiant Bliss, etc. etc.
Buddhists also prefer to be apophatic rather than cathiphatic. They prefer to tell you what Ultimate Reality is not rather than what It is. Hence the phrase describing it as the Unborn, the Undying, the Uncreated, the Unchanging.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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Don't forget anaphatic, hypophatic and hyperphatic. Plus my all-time favorite: diaphatic.
So I'd like to state for the record that I think H. sapiens could do better than the Abrahamic narrative and Western civilization if not the entire world would do itself better to start developing alternative narrative models so at least it has more than one- perhaps centered on three footings: what is, what matters, what works.
A good author in this area who thinks in terms of narrative analysis and development besides Joseph Campbell is a fella named Loyal Rue. You folks should check him out.
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pa
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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Blimey, this is getting better than the theater! People sparring and throwing darts all over the place...
Jstan, thank you for the link and the reminders on how far along chemistry is taking us. You say:
The question of how it is these components come to be together appears to be..by accident.
Hmmm...I have entertained the notion of randomness, at times. But it's not very convincing, is it? The Random Universe of Mathematical Precision...hmmm.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
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The word "accident" can be problematic. Suggestion: Try the word concadent, concadence, instead. Comes from the Latin: together to fall.
So instead of (a) "those arrogant godless scientists want to teach our kids that they're accidents, that we're all accidents, that all life is an accident of the big bang" try (b) "the nice scientists want to teach our kids all life is an evolutionary concadence (or, a concadent development) of the big bang." In an age where delicate wording can be so important, you might get more traction with concadence, concadent, if that matters to you.
Words matter. With the emerging new schools of thought, new language and new framing are emerging, too. I can hardly wait, the sooner the better. I for one am so tired of the "Abrahamic religious slant" that prejudices the English language.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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pa:
http://www.psrast.org/junkdna.htm
Some large portion of our DNA is meaningless "junk". It may have been expressed and have affected the creature(s) before but now is not expressed in any way of which we know. cf link.
At my last reading it was suggested this junk coding may act to prevent mutations from being expressed to the detriment of its owner. Sort of a checksum if you will. When you consider the number of base pairs and the minimal energy barriers preventing miscoding it has to be clear I am the only person whose DNA is a perfect reflection of their parentage. I trust you will not tell anyone but my great great great grandfather was charged with counterfeiting and very nearly hung at the age of eighteen. We are quite proud of that John Stannard as he managed to be interesting. On more practical grounds, I am rather pleased things turned out as they did.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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And for those who want to go really deep "under the hood" regarding DNA and genes, even the DNA's repair enzymes are regulated (a) by epigenesis (the epigenetic environment) and (b) by natural selection. That insight, 20th century discovery, otherwise reality, is very deep, very mysterious, very wonderous. Certainly wowed me when I learned about it in a graduate course in Molecular Biology.
jstan- so you must have a genome with very active, very aggressive repair enzymes.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
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There you go. I prayed pa would not tell anyone else.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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Jan!
Initially Jan states: "Those who went before their religion(Christianity)was founded, are condemned."
"Those" would be everyone that ever existed!!
And I reply: "Who teaches this........................PATHETIC!
She then refines "THOSE" to: "So your telling me that every HINDU, and BUDDHIST, and NON-HEBREW RELIGION before the birth of Jesus are saved?
That, by the way, is called putting words into YOUR/MY mouth...at about 2:30AM PST furthermore! And I had long since gone to sleep and had a busy day the follwing morning, Sunday...
But today I noticed that our very own once upon a time "Xian" as he refers to himself...kinda more like a 'Latter Day Judas' if you ask me, but an amiable guy no less...rrrADAM, brought it back to my attention.
rrrADAM- "Regarding TripL7...he will not answer you, him and his ilk."
This seems to have further strengthened/confirmed his stance that all Christians("Xians")are no more than poor Ol' Apostle Peter types before the Rooster crowed...Denying, denying ("I,I,D,D")!!
You have our rolls bacwards rrrADAM, your the one Denying...
Well back to the remark Jan made "Your telling me..."
Well, this would go back to the descendants of Noah and his sons which went off into various directions, repopulating the world. They, by the way, brought the story of the flood with them.
The Bible says that "every man is without excuse".
There is available to every man a certain knowledge of God. This knowledge is attainable by observing the handiwork of God in creation.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power, and His divine nature so that they are without excuse, because, although they new God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds, and four footed animals and creeping things."
What man did with what God showed them, only God knows for each idividual. But evidently before the flood, an entire world became evil!
"Gods eternal power and His divine nature"... who can look at the raging power of Niagra Falls, or Yosemite Falls in the springtime and not be struck by the power of the One Who created them. Or look at the power of the atom and not be impressed with the infinite power of the Creator? And who can ponder creation without concluding that someone far superior to man was the originator of it all?
As the Psalmist put it long ago "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge." Palm 19:1-2
God did not withhold the revelation essential to salvation from anyone. But man chose to not worship the God who created man in His own image, and instead, chose to worship gods made in their image. They chose to worship the creation. They "suppressed the truth". It was not the sparsity of revelation, it was the suppression of it.
That very "revelation" of Gods power in the universe lead to these conclusions:
Dr. Louis Pasteur concurred "Just because I reflected I remained a believer."
Dr. A. Nuremberg said "God is the cause of all things, and whoever thinks in the terms of cause and effect, thinks in the terms of God."
Dr. Horstmann testified "My scientific conscious forbids me not to believe in God."
Even an unbeliever like Voltaire confessed "I do not know what to think of the world, but I cannot believe this clock exists without a clockmaker."
Jan, to answer your question thoroughly would be beyond my available time and experience, but take for instance the reference to Rahab the Harlot in Hebrews 11:31 "By faith Rahab the Harlot did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace."
Rahab was not a Hebrew, she was a Canaanite pagan whore...but she somehow came to faith in God as He had revealed His eternal power and divine nature to her...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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I will die by stoning.
I admit it, back before I was married, I once looked at a woman with "lust".
Therefore, according to Trip, and Gobby, and rest of the literal biblicists,
I have committed the sin of ADULTERY.
Also, two weeks ago I saw a woman beat her dog.
I was consumed with ANGER.
And so, again, I have committed a major sin, this time of MURDER.
That's right folks, Trip says Matthew says, that Jesus said, that I, Norton,
am guilty of the sins of ADULTERY and MURDER.
Now, what do you think the bible says should happen to me.
You guessed it, STONED TO DEATH.
And to think that ADULTS right now in 2010 actually believe this crap.
Kiss my white pagan ass.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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How old is the earth, Gobby?
Tell us right now because you have NEVER answered this question.
Tell us right now that El Cap and Half Dome were instantly CREATED 6000 years ago.
How old is the earth, Gobby?
Hint, don't let anyone else answer FOR YOU. Trip is not allowed to speak for you.
Be a man, Gobee.
You can do it, yourself, right now. Tell us.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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It's interesting reading.... all these posts about the many forms of philosophic and religious thought (or not). The one thing that I don't read or hear much along with this is how these beliefs intimately and ultimately affect the posters day to day living (for good) their own lives and helping those around them.
Few tell stories of how their beliefs specifically play into how they live their moments of life in the daily day as they live one day at a time on this planet. I read alot of textbook stuff but not much practical application in a personal way. Just my take.... lynnie
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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Norton- You esp would enjoy Agora, new film (starring Rachael Weisz as Hypatia) having to live amongst Jews, Christians, Pagans. Check it out. You probably know already who burned the great Library.
Oh, the film wasn't accepted on the U.S theater circuit. (Why? Hint: Too many Bluerings, Go-Bs, Trips, IDs, Fredricks, etc.) But was very popular in the more liberated Europe. But no worries there are other means of getting a hold of it.
EDIT 6:08p Norton- Very!
Lynnie wrote-
The one thing that I don't read or hear much along with this is how these beliefs intimately and ultimately affect the posters day to day living (for good) their own lives and helping those around them.
Few tell stories of how their beliefs specifically play into how they live their moments of life in the daily day as they live one day at a time on this planet. I read alot of textbook stuff but not much practical application in a personal way.
I loved this post, an excellent reflection. It is definitely an area that needs attention.
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