Down with the delta smelt!

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 141 - 160 of total 175 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

rincon

Trad climber

SoCal

Dec 15, 2010 - 11:34am PT

There's asome good comments to the article you posted Chaz. The first one some it up well...

[quote]Wow, science said there's less water available during a drought, so cut back the pumping to save the delta.

Billionaire farmers like the Resniks of Beverley Hills, who planted drought intolerant trees instead of followable crops, then cried foul.

So, judge Wanger has listened to their well funded, but junk economic advise, and has thrown out peer-reviewed and well supported science.

There's a tactic to avoid the endangered species act used by unscrupulous developers, adopted this time by the Resnicks, which is "Shoot, shovel and shut up" when anything looks endangered. This time they've gotten the judge to do the shooting for them.

As for the "Congress created dust bowl" signs, the last one I saw on Hwy 5 was in a field of just harvested hay. Some dust bowl!

Grow up farmers: wet years mean big harvests, dry years mean small harvests, that's the way it is.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/12/14/BAKO1GQMTH.DTL#ixzz18CKjiMcn[/quote]

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Dec 15, 2010 - 11:41am PT

That's what happens when things are decided on emotion ( *indicator species*, and similar horseshit ) instead of logic.

Wow, could anyone write anymore of a backwards statement?

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Dec 15, 2010 - 11:56am PT

I see Dingus is staying out of this one. But I wanted to thank Dingus for turning me onto a book everyone here should read: "The King Of California: J.G. Boswell and the Making of A Secret American Empire "

It is about choices and money. Big money and hard choices. Good luck.

ps, Mark Arax is a great writer.

Studly

Trad climber

Dec 15, 2010 - 12:55pm PT

When all the animals are gone, who will be left and for how long? It will be a pretty lonely planet. and a dead one.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Dec 15, 2010 - 01:02pm PT

It's called "evolution".

It's just as foolish to fight evolution as it is to deny it exists.

Paul Martzen

Trad climber

Fresno

Dec 15, 2010 - 01:20pm PT

I have been meaning to read that whole book about Boswell. Much of the Central Valley has a sort of plantation economy, where a few people own most of the land and everyone else is relatively poor. Boswell owned in the 100,000 acre range? Should look it up. I think Resnick is bigger now. Westlands Water District which is is the primary district effected by the delta pumping issues, has 600,000 acres owned legally by about 500 people who belong to about 50 families. Wikipedia has good info on Westlands

Westlands has been the focal point for many controversial water issues in California because of its size--it is the largest agricultural water district in the United States. The Reclamation Act of 1902 required that farmers live on their land (Westlands had many absent landowners at the time of federal contracting) and only receive water for 160 acres (In 1968, 11% of the owners owned 84% of the land).

The vast majority of farms in the central valley do not use delta water. They are irrigated with a combination of ground water pumping and surface water gravity fed from reservoirs. Most of the irrigation districts which provide surface water have been around for a hundred years or so. The many storage reservoirs built in the 40's, 50's, and 60's change the timing of the spring runoff, so farmers can irrigate through the summer. They also allow a certain amount of carry over from wet years to drier years. All of those dams are federal government projects, where federal taxpayers picked up 50% of the tab at minimum. It varies from project to project. Farmers are supposed to pay some share, but I think the repayment and maintenance terms are very generous. The idea was to create prosperous small farming communities that would put lots of people to productive work.

Most of the dams in California are Federal Bureau of Reclamation projects. Water from such projects was supposed to be delivered to farms of 160 acres or less. Boswell had about 50 times that much, so he persuaded congress to to let the Army Corp build all of the dams in the southern San Joaquin, on the Kings, Kaweah, Tule, and Kern. The Army Corp picked up most of the tab as being for flood control, so the farmers in the area get the stored water for pretty cheap. The big farmers got their water without any new restrictions.

If the delta pumps were shut off, most California farms would be unaffected as they don't get any water from the delta. The farms that are effected tend to be very large, so the money impact would appear to be very big. You see the figure that 25 million people are effected, but that only means some of the water is sent to LA and mixed with all of their other sources. Also a lot of Bay area cities and water districts pump from the delta at other locations that are not subject to the federal lawsuits. The Tracy pumps which are the ones in contention pump into the California Aquaduct. They are simply the very largest of many delta pumps. They may be the must heavily subsidized as well. So every time the pumps are turned on, taxpayers pay more.

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Dec 15, 2010 - 01:37pm PT

I guess I used to think most climbers were center or left because they liked nature. But now I'm thinking it's because most climbers prioritize quality of life over standard of living. Many on the right care more about money and the economy. Many in the center and left care more about quality of life, e.g. hiking in nature is almost free but it can be more rewarding than guzzling fuel in an offshore power boat.

This is a great example. What's more important to you? A healthy river eco-system, or maintaining existing water allocations for farming $? Often though when a complete economic anaylsis is done it is better for the economy as a whole to protect the environment because of tourism, fishing, clean up costs, etc.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Dec 15, 2010 - 02:21pm PT

Often though when a complete economic anaylsis is done it is better for the economy as a whole to protect the environment because of tourism, fishing, clean up costs, etc.

The problem is finding that complete analysis. It's a little like Esperanto. Everyone purports to speak the same language, but their accents make each other unintelligable.

I see that everyone has already chimed in on their opinion of Wanger's decision. You might want to consider reading it, if you have time on your hands. I just finished downloading Wanger's opinion from the court. He may not be as entertaining as Mark Arax, but he's far more accurate.

http://www.caed.uscourts.gov/caed

It's a free download (normally $.08 per page or $18.00 for the 225-page opinion), but it may be hard to navigate to find it, as you may need access to PACER. For those who care, it's in case no. 1:09-cv-00407, document No. 757 (and in several related cases).

In it, he discusses in detail the analysis he believes the law requires, and his reasons for concluding that the analysis done failed to comply with the law.

I also need to take issue with Paul on one point. I agree that the pumping issue directly provides water only for the California Water Project and the Delta-Mendota Canal, but the overall issues of riparian water use affect almost all farmers, including many of the smallest. The Delta ecosystem depends on all of its inputs. Both Hetch Hetcy and the Central Valley Project help determine Delta health. For that reason, Delta environmental rulings have affected all upstream water users (except, somehow, Hetch Hetchy). The CVP, and many smaller irrigation systems (including much of the Miller & Lux systems) provide water for much of the east side, where the smaller farmers operate.

John

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Dec 15, 2010 - 02:29pm PT

Maybe the best thing for tourism is to develop the hell out everything.

How many tourists visited the naturally pristine swamps of Orlando Florida before Disney drained them and built Disney World?

What kind of tourism do you envision the Delta Smelt attracting?

Sport Fishing for Trophy Smelt?

Smelt Watching Tours?

Paul Martzen

Trad climber

Fresno

Dec 15, 2010 - 02:38pm PT

Someone way upstream complained that after farmers agreed to the San Joaquin Restoration, that environmentalists then turned around and sued on the delta pumping. Legally and historically these are completely separate processes. They are related ecologically though.

The operations of Friant Dam on the San Joaquin river completely dried the river in two long section and destroyed what had once been a very large salmon fishery. Water from Friant is sent through canals south to Bakersfield and north past Madera. This allowed areas that did not used to be farmed to be farmed and areas that were using up their ground water, to get surface water, so they could continue farming. The feds did not want to put any water in the river at all, but there were some lawsuits by locals back in the day that forced Friant to release a small amount of water into the river for streamside irrigation. That water is used up about 30 miles west of Friant.

In the Mendota and Firebaugh area there were landowners who had rights to San Joaquin water and they were large enough to have political and legal clout. To buy them off, the feds installed pumps in the delta to pump water upstream through the Delta Mendota Canal. These pumps are not subject to lawsuits and controversies presently being argued. These pumps have not been shut off. There is ongoing discussion to create an intertie between the Delta Mendota Canal and the California Aquaduct. This would allow water to be pumped from the Delta Mendota Canal into the California Aquaduct during times the California Aquaduct pumps have to be turned off.

So the San Joaquin ran with Delta Water from Mendota past Firebaugh feeding various canals till it was used up again. The river bed was dry from south of highway 152 till the confluence with the Merced River. For some reasons, the Merced and rivers north are required to release enough to keep the channel wet to the delta. They release higher amounts during salmon spawning seasons. I don't know the history of that, but have no doubt it was contentious.

If San Joaquin Water does flow all the way to the delta, then there would be a bit more fresh water there and the delta would possibly be a bit healthier. There are all kinds of questions though. Will farmers take advantage of the higher flows to dump more toxic runoff water into the river, since dilution is the solution to pollution?

Once San Joaquin water reaches the delta, farmers want the feds to pump some of that water into the California Aquaduct or similar, so it can be moved back south and delivered to farmers in the south San Joaquin Valley. Apparently there are enough interties or potential transfer locations that present Friant water users could get water by a round about means. Or perhaps they would look at selling the water to other users.

Selling water is getting to be big business in parts of the San Joaquin. If you have solid water rights and can get it for say $50 an acre foot, then turn around and sell it for $2,000 an acre foot you can make a pretty good profit and let your land sit fallow. Resnick has bought up an entire irrigation district near Mendota. If conditions allow water selling or transfers in the future he will have an easier time selling that water or transferring it to one of his other holdings.

Any rate the San Joaquin restoration project, which is just beginning, was started after a 20 year lawsuit over state law that all dams have to leave enough water in the river to keep it and its fishery in good condition. The Friant Water Users were losing that lawsuit and were going to have to release a lot of water into the river with no compensation and no quibbling. With a settlement agreement, they get the feds (taxpayers) to pay for all kinds of studies and compensations. Also the amount of water to be released into the river will be much less with the settlement than if the lawsuit had gone to completion.

Paul Martzen

Trad climber

Fresno

Dec 15, 2010 - 03:01pm PT

Hey John,

Are you sure the Delta Mendota pumps are effected by the pumping reductions? I was thinking that they weren't, but mainly cause I was watching the flows at Mendota. I did not see any significant reductions in flow during the height of the pumping shut downs. But I confess that I have not looked at the lawsuit. Thanks for the link to Wagner's latest. I will try to wade through that. The one time I have heard him talk, I was impressed with his thoughtfulness.

I am not sure exactly what you mean that eastside farmers are effected by the pumping issue. Is Fresno Irrigation effected by it? Other than by a little less competition from Westlands? Perhaps you mean something more general. Maybe farmers worry that if one farmer gets his water reduced for environmental reasons, then they may be next? I think that may be a common attitude.

corniss chopper

Mountain climber

san jose, ca

Dec 15, 2010 - 03:05pm PT

The smelt problem from a different perspective is
there’s no denying that striped bass eat untold thousands of salmon and
smelt. But so too do large mouth bass, small mouth bass, spotted bass, black and white crappie, channel catfish and a whole host of other
non-native species.

So is the smelt decline due to less fresh water flows into the delta
or invasive, apex predators gobbling them up.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Dec 15, 2010 - 03:22pm PT

Paul,

I'll check, but I'm pretty sure the pumping issues affect both the CWP and the Delta-Mendota Canal. Otherwise, it would seem like a relatively easy fix to have the CWP use the same types of pumps they use at Tracy for the Delta-Mendota Canal.

In general, any change that provides less water for the Friant-Kern and Madera Canals affects irrigation districts nearby, because much of that water gets appropriated by adjacent districts. I don't know all of FID's sources of water, but I know other districts in the area by Sanger and Reedley where I was farming were adversely affected by the lower supply of CVP water.

In any case, I have a great deal of respect for Wanger. I worked with and against him before he took the bench. I appeared before him as a litigator, and as a criminal defendant. He didn't give me what I wanted, and was a bit over to the in his comments, but he is fundamentally fair, hard-workding, highly intelligent, and a zealous defender of the law. I just wish I could find a more straightforward link to his opinion. If I could figure out how to do it in a compact way, I'll post it somewhere if no one else does.

Maybe I can get that miscreant Tim Schiller to help me, but he's too busy being a travel agent -- and doing too little else, like climbing, at the moment. ;-)

John

corniss chopper

Mountain climber

san jose, ca

Dec 15, 2010 - 03:23pm PT

Striped Bass anglers in the delta say let the farmers thirst to death just so
we can continue our drunken weekend fishing outings and get away from the wife.

Hey who's having more fun? Us or some corn farmer?

Note: Apex predator fish are eating smelt faster than they can reproduce in today's water conditions of diversions to LA and farms.

http://theangle.net/pictures/striped-bass/

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Dec 15, 2010 - 03:59pm PT

What kind of tourism do you envision the Delta Smelt attracting?

And Chaz STILL can't past the idea that it's about the smelt.

Tourism is a false flag operation.

Yeah they never should have forced the "hoofed locust" out of Yosemite and they should have allowed the quarrying of rock from El Cap. There are no tourists in Yosemite.

I saw a great photo at the Malakoff Diggins State Historic Park. BITD they were hydraulic mining with abandon sending tons upon tons of mud and silt donwstream which caused huge flooding and many deaths downstream in Yuba City. There was a court fight over banning hydraulic mining. One of the supporters of mining was holding up a sign in the photo that said "Live and Let Live"...

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Dec 15, 2010 - 04:17pm PT

Back in the 90s when it was the Spotted Owl vs. logging old growth forests at least you had the Patchouli smelling hippies crying over a charismatic bird.

Today it's just not the same. You can't hug a smelt.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Dec 15, 2010 - 04:26pm PT

Fet,
Interestingly, the decline of the Spotted Owl is now attributed in no small
degree to the aggressive range expansion of its close cousin the Barred Owl.
Habitat loss to logging is certainly a large factor but as is often the case
the whole picture was not and likely still is not in focus.

corniss chopper

Mountain climber

san jose, ca

Dec 15, 2010 - 05:16pm PT

toprope - very nice! - applause!

Have you found any studies on how many salmon fingerlings actually make it
to the ocean without being eaten by delta apex predators .

If they
don't get out they can't come back and counted as successful spawn-ers(?)

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Dec 15, 2010 - 06:04pm PT

Timid Toprope writes:

"Chaz, as you think the understanding of indicator species to be junk science, or worse, an emotional argument; what are you proposing?"

In it's current form, it's a combination of junk science and junk politics.

My opinion might be different if you could name an indicator species or two that indicate their environment is doing OK.