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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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Ethics are great to have.
Cling to them as the tide comes in.
Write a book about how rad it used to be.
El capitan is far too close to the road to stay pure.
You don't like it, go up there and chop em.
In 100 years the girdle traverse will be A0 if no one does.
Bottom line, there is no money in danger. Making things safer is how we got fat Texans on everest. We'll never get them to pay to hang off 1/4" spinners on El capitan.
Cuz that rock exists to make a buck off it, right?
One of the boldest things I ever did was haul off two equalized hooks on Sunkist. The bolts sucked, and weren't original anyway. I'm sure two fat asca bolts would have been nice at the time, but I'm richer for the experience.
The Hilti is a fact. That's not hearsay, Pete. FACT.
the trees and base lodge work are related, yet not in a way.
Related in motive, but totally unjustifiable as a safety concern.
But who am I to judge, I lent Potter a saw to cut the branch off the Yabo boulder.
The eternal sunshine thing is really annoying.
It's raining dude, a full squall.
"One can choose to ignore reality, but one can not ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." Ayn Rand.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:09pm PT
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Who added bolts to all the belays on Sea of Dreams while doing the 4th ascent? Is that you?
Let's say that we did. That would not make YOUR behaviors justifiable. It would only include me in YOUR condemnation, and you'd "have me" on inconsistency. Again, none of that would justify YOUR behaviors.
In point of fact, Mark and I were scrutinized during our fifth ascent of the Sea incredibly closely. Climbers literally took rotating shifts in the meadow to watch us via telescope, and Barbella and Brand were told to watch us closely during their FA of Heartland (right next to us during out mutual ascents). We know of both activities first-hand from some who engaged in them, and both Barbella and Brand told us what they had been told.
In point of fact, Mark and I added NO drilled placements to the Sea during our ascent, and that is a documented and WIDELY-known fact.
So, SHAME on you on all accounts! NOTHING justifies your behaviors.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:09pm PT
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I've been all over the world in some of the most remote places where none of you've been.
Horsesh#t.
You may have been to some remote and relatively unvisited places. Big deal. Do you have any idea where I, or any of a hundred other people who post here have been?
No, you don't.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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Ya, who cares anyway?
Ten days after isn't on El Cap.
Pave it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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Do you have any idea where I, or any of a hundred other people who post here have been?
Yep
I didn't see your name in the registrar ......
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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When Richard Jensen is lecturing you on ethics, you have really farced up big time.
But then again, Harding throwing up on my shoes is a cherished memory. So maybe it's like that...
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
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Only 60 posts as of 2005 - now triple that.
Well bumped Couchmaster!
Apparently things haven't changed much in the last 10 years.
That is a fairly long period of time to continuously piss people off.
Ya gotta give him credit for consistency!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 02:59am PT
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Ok,ok, let's stay on topic for a sec....This thread is about Tens Days After.
 Erik 'Nanook' Sloan
Erik,erik, you are (again) missing the bigger picture. This topic is not about the defacement of one particular route. Attempting to fixate on Ten Days After, as a diversion from the actual conversation, is childish, and not even slightly clever.
Ok,ok, let's get back on topic:
There are about a dozen routes mentioned in this thread, which you have damaged by some or all of the following:
over-drilling of all holes for large belay bolts
not properly pulling old rusty bolts, to reuse the old holes
smashing old bolts back and forth to break them off
adding unnecessary holes, including not reusing existing, old holes
adding belay bolt ladders to bypass existing, usable cracks
adding belay bolt ladders to bypass piton cracks, to make the route go "clean"
redrilling rivet ladders at will, ignoring the original spacing
replacing ladder dowels, rivets and 1/4" bolts with 3/8" belay bolts
adding in-pitch protection bolts on free sections
adding belay bolts at every station, regardless of natural anchors
using power equipment to maximize damage and defacement
You claim these destructive acts ostensibly help other climbers, by obviating their need for advanced rock climbing skills, like placing their own gear, constructing natural belays, using pitons, beaks and copperheads in tenuous placements, using skyhooks on small edges, top-stepping on reachy rivet ladders, maintaining composure during run-out, difficult free climbing, and continually meeting the ongoing challenges that are an inherent aspect and primary allure of big wall climbing.
By robbing those climbers of their opportunity to learn and use those advanced rock climbing skills, you degrade their experience in the National Park. In effect, you have taken it upon yourself to decide, for them, how they should climb in Yosemite.
Your self-image of "Erik the Babysitter Knows Best" is socially aberrant, and wholly antagonistic to the spirit of the freedom of rock climbing. You are like a repressed sexual deviate who feels compelled to spray-paint over the "dirty parts" of priceless artworks in the world's greatest museum, to "save the children from themselves".
It's not up to you to decide what Yosemite's masterpieces should look like. If you can't handle them as they are, then don't interact with them. Leave them alone, so that other, more mature individuals can enjoy them as they are, for all time.
Instead of invoking a few individuals, perhaps as depraved as you are, who agree with what you are doing, you should acknowledge and respond to the larger climbing community's concerns about what you are doing.
Reality is essentially a democratic process, and the numbers here are clearly against you. Certainly, history is also against you in this matter, and few, if any, rational climbers acknowledge your internally-generated pseudo-reality that allows you to discard over a century's worth of tradition on a myopic and deaf, egotistical and selfish whim.
Instead of being autistic with respect to communication from the group as a whole, you should strive to listen to what they are saying:
It is not appropriate to extrapolate from replacing rusty belay bolts to drilling the hell out of every route you climb. Properly replacing rusty belay bolts is a good thing. But, please, leave the rest of the route alone - as in, don't modify, drill, improve or otherwise change it, at all. Leave existing routes alone. If you can't control your psychotic urge to drill multiple holes on every route you climb, then stop climbing. Get some psychiatric help, if necessary.
If you can overcome your social infirmities in this respect, you will be able to A) empathize with the group; B) become a member of the group; C) stop your aberrant, anti-social and destructive behavior; and D) cease to be a hated and loathed deviate at risk of imprisonment, injury, or worse.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Oct 16, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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Way to go Erik!
Great job!!
Over 20+ years of pussifying routes!!
And illegally cutting branches too!!
You are an amazing steward of Yosemite..
Woot!
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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thanks finally for a reasonable response
Not that I agree with all of it
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:14am PT
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Quote: Well bumped Couchmaster! Apparently things haven't changed much in the last 10 years.
Yup, haven't seen so many twisted up panties on a ST thread since Ammon used that single piton on A route that had gone clean ONCE. There were pitchforks and torches out for Ammon on that one, and it was real long: this thread isn't there yet although the butthurt is deep and wide. The self-righteous ethics police F*#kers all but chased Ammon off the site and he unfortunately stayed away for quite some time. (sadly)
Time to ramp this one up?
HANG HIM!!!!!
Then bump the Ammon hate thread later once this dies off a tad? I would hope not.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:19am PT
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Whoa....
Yes, bolt spacing on bolt ladders should be appropriate for the average climber of today, not spaced however the first ascentionists put them.
Who decided this? I say no. Those guys drilled the rivets or bolts on the lead to reduce hole count, an now you are increasing hole count?! What about Kor routes? The bolts are far apart too?
Like a lot of folks, I will say thank you for REPLACING old bolts, but it sounds like you are adding them to routes so I will say NO THANK YOU and PLEASE STOP.
It seems like every climbing area has the local Drill Sargent who lives in a different world. I've met them all over the place....Cochise Stronghold, Boulder Canyon, Moab, etc., and some of the things they all have in common is they are convinced they are doing the world a lot of good and are completely oblivious to any kind of constructive criticism or negative feedback. And I've had face to face talks with these folks, saying I really don't appreciate some of the things they are doing; they smile and say "cool brah thanks for letting me know", then they post on the Internet saying "nobody had a problem with what I'm doing, it's all good bro brah, the only people who have problems are Internet whiners who don't climb anymore..."
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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So Couch, you just bumped the thread to twist panties and engender more hate? Nice work.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:25am PT
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Will someone please explain the nature of rebolting long wall routes in detail. Do all the belays get bolts for the security of the rebolting party and to allow retrieval of ropes without leaving gear? Are all top down, if not which were ground up?
Is a top down approach the culprit for making gear belays into permanent rap anchors? So how iS wall rebolting done?
What about an agreement to no rebolting of certain routes? Make a list.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 16, 2015 - 07:41am PT
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So who is going to snitch on him?
Doesn't snitching go against what the "old skool dads" stand for?
Erik is easy enough to find (you just have to actually BE in the valley.. omg!) - why not approach him and talk face to face?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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Therein lies the conundrum!
Not much of a conundrum as enforcement must not be in this year's budget.
Get Diane Feinstein to bring it up on the Senate floor and you'll see some action!
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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Old skool dads would have dealt with this in the parking lot. Pity those days are gone.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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OK, Erik, repairing existing, rotten belay bolts is VERY cool of you. I know how hard it is because I've pulled and redrilled forty or so myself up there. I don't think anybody has a problem with your redoing existing belay bolts.
But, some people, like me, think that the in-pitch gear should not be arbitrarily upgraded, and putting in additional holes (to bypass piton cracks???) is definitely off-limits. Certainly there are exceptions, like the one time a rivet broke on Bermuda Dunes, and a new hole had to be drilled right next to it.
But, wantonly drilling and sinking big fat belay bolts all over an existing route is deemed wrong by many people. I'll say it right here: I think it was wrong of you to do that to the dowel/rivet ladder on Son of Heart. I have been lucky to have not seen any other Nanooking on the other six El Cap routes I've done, because they were obscurities, and I got there before you got there with your drill.
This thread has many people decrying your overuse of bolts on existing routes. The Great Slab Route is one. Pegasus is another. Tangerine Trip is another. Other people just mention the practice in general, as if there are too many instances, everywhere in Yosemite, to list.
How you can continue to deny that many people think your mid-pitch "improvements" are highly inappropriate? Just because "putting in new belay bolts" is acceptable doesn't mean that "putting in new bolts" is acceptable. It is widely held, by many climbers, going all the way back to the 60's (and to the 2005 start of this thread) that belay anchors necessarily have a different status than in-pitch protection and aid placements. The belay anchors should be extremely reliable, the in-pitch gear, perhaps not so much. Somehow, you are not acknowledging (or are ignoring) this crucial difference. You are treating all mid-pitch placements as if they need to be able to hold long falls. You are bypassing the "rules of the game", which is to get up using what is there on the rock. Getting up by using a power drill is not only cheating, it cheats all other climbers who come along later.
If there are so many rotten bolts still out there, why not do this:
Focus solely on the rotten belay bolts, and replace those. Leave the in-pitch gear as-is. Don't dissipate your limited resources by playing Safety Queen, and Nanooking the ever-living sh#t out of every route you climb. Stick to the basics, the belay bolts.
If someone breaks a rivet on ZM, or some other hard-assed thing, so what? Part of the fun up there is playing Russian Rawlette. Who are you to take that fun away from them? I'm not talking about the noob trade routes, here. You have been Nanooking even difficult, obscure routes. Who the F goes up the Great Slab Route? Only some hard-asses who definitely do NOT need your assistance, thank you very much.
If you must replace or repair ladders on these mid-to-high level routes, don't use a string of belay bolts. Use 1/4" x 1.5" stainless steel split-shaft buttonhead Rawls. They won't corrode rapidly, and they can be yanked out rather easily. The new one goes right into the old hole PRESTO! No drilling required. Rivet ladders are not supposed to be elongated belay anchors. They are supposed to be scary as hell. That's why people go up on the Big Wall.
If they want to be safe, they go to a Dogtown surf spot, and fist fight the locals over the right to get in the lineup to be eaten by a wayward Tiger shark.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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That's not it.
The park service doesn't want to be sued or blamed for stopping someone from preventing deaths.
He makes it safer and easier, we all agree on that, even him.
Try arguing the other side of that argument in court to nonclimbers.
Wait, you want it to be more dangerous and limited who can use it to only those with vast expert level experience?
Good luck with that in context of land management.
The trees and the base work is all you can really say.
From nps pov he is reducing the number of fatalities and rescues, thereby reducing their costs.
The vision presented of 4 1/2" I bolts at every belay is just too much for me to take.
Why bother to climb at all, what is the reward with no risk?
"Go to the valley and talk to him"...
The valley is a circus with lots of clowns, trained bears, and animal tenders. It's only allure for me was the big and wild rock faces.
Take that away, and it is overcrowded, overpriced, and overpoliced.
Quite possible the worst place to hang in any mountain area in the USA.
Edit to add- well said Mr Fox.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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Will someone please explain the nature of rebolting long wall routes in detail. Do all the belays get bolts for the security of the rebolting party and to allow retrieval of ropes without leaving gear? Are all top down, if not which were ground up?
It's done both ways. Routes on Glacier Point and Royal Arches aprons have been done rap-in, drill, rap, repeat.
When I've done it, it's been ground up: climb a pitch to a belay, pull the old bolts, redrill, and insert new, bigger bolts. Then, set up the belay for hauling and cleaning. Basically, you climb a pitch and the last two or three pieces are redrilling and replacing the belay bolts. Then, the pitch is finished, and it's ready to be cleaned and hauled. Sometimes, it's possible to use the crack above the belay to set up a gear belay running up the crack, so that the second can be cleaning while one bolt at a time can be pulled and repaired. Usually, if there are enough strong gear placements at a belay, there won't be any bolts (at least in the good old codger days . . . . ) But, I've climbed up and set the first five or so pieces in an A1/C1 crack, and equalized them to use just one of the belay bolts while monkeying with the other. Using this setup, the leader can go off, climbing solo-style, while the second works on repairing the belay bolts.
What about an agreement to no rebolting of certain routes? Make a list.
What a great idea!
I'll start the list:
NO REBOLTING OF ANY ROUTE IN YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK; BELAY BOLT REPAIR NOT INCLUDED IN THIS LIST; MID-PITCH REBOLTING STRICTLY FORBIDDEN
edit:
ECF has a great point, regarding the Nanook Conundrum.
The NPS wants people to be safe, but they don't want the natural surroundings to be disturbed.
For example, the Half Dome via Ferrata has been a man-killer for years.
What is astonishing is that more people haven't died fighting their way up the outside of the cable path to bypass inert blobs within. Just recently, the NPS decided to issue permits, and have a toll-booth worker stand at the base. They could have put up a third cable, and painted UP and DOWN arrows for the two lanes, but that would alter the natural surroundings. So, they issue permits and collect a toll.
Nanooking routes definitely makes them safer. But, is that what we want? To make all the routes safer?
What about that hellish Merced River. That thing is a man killer, too. Why not call Mr. O'Shaughnessy out of retirement and get a dam? That'll stop that devilish water from flowing the innocent to their untimely deaths.
Why not just foam-pad the entire nation and create the World's Biggest Rubber Room?
Definitely a Conundrum.
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