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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 24, 2008 - 01:46am PT
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Jennie,
I could tell you about heterosexual couples where the man was convicted of rape, murder, battery or all sorts of things. What does that prove?
I use to help in a womans shelter.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 24, 2008 - 01:51am PT
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John:
I gave my personal experience. I didn't draw my conclusions just from that.
"Despite homosexual claims that “Love Makes A Family,” homosexual domestic partners are experiencing
an epidemic of violence—both physical and emotional abuse at the hands of their “lovers.” Until recently,
this was a dirty little secret that was kept from the public. In a PBS “All Things Considered” interview with a
Boston homosexual activist in 1996, the commentator noted that the problem of homosexual domestic partner
“battering” is not new. According to homosexual activists, battering has “been kept quiet in the gay community
for political reasons. It was dirty laundry that didn’t need to be aired in public.”
It appears that homosexuals are now going public with the truth about homosexual domestic violence because
they’re seeking local, state, and federal funds for “safe houses” and counseling programs for the victims
of domestic abuse.
It is instructive to compare the various published statistics of how many homosexuals are victims of samesex
violence each year to how many “hate crimes” are committed against homosexuals by heterosexuals. In
TVC’s special report, Hate Crime Legislation: Unequal Treatment Under the Law, we noted that the latest
FBI hate crime statistics are from 1999. They indicate that in that year only 1,317 hate crime incidents involving
homosexuals were listed. Of those, many of them were name-calling or simple assault. In 1998, there
were 16,914 murders committed. Only four were considered hate-motivated murders against homosexuals.
This is not stated to minimize the horror of murder, but to point out that overall, homosexuals are relatively
free of violence directed at them because of their sexual behavior.
Domestic Violence Is A Serious Threat To Homosexuals
Recent statistics compiled by researchers and by homosexual lobbying organizations show that it takes
more than “love” to make a family. In 1999, for example, the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs
(NCAVP) issued a report indicating that there were 3,120 documented incidents of homosexual domestic
violence in San Francisco, New York City, Chicago, Boston, Los Angeles, Colorado, Cleveland, and Columbus,
Ohio. Compare the 3,120 figure to the 1,317 hate crimes committed against homosexuals nationally in
1999. The conclusion is obvious: Homosexuals pose a far greater threat to other homosexuals than do
heterosexuals.
“Violence in Lesbian and Gay Relationships: Theory, Prevalence, and Correlational Factors,” was published
in 1999 by the Clinical Psychology Review. This study surveyed 19 different studies on homosexual domestic
violence, comparing those rates to heterosexual rates of violence. It found: 28% of heterosexual couples,
48% of lesbians and 38% of homosexual male couples reported physical abuse in one study. In studies using
only lesbian couples, psychological abuse was reported by 73% to 90% of lesbians. More than 30% of
lesbians had been in a relationship where at least one physical incident occurred.
In “Extent, Nature, and Consequences Of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From The National Violence
Against Women Survey,” published by the federal National Institutes of Health in July, 2000, researchers
found “that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did oppose-sex
cohabitants.” Among lesbians, 39.2% reported being raped, physically assaulted, or stalked by their samesex
partner. For male homosexuals, 15.4% reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a
male partner. Overall, the research indicated that partner violence (both heterosexual and homosexual) is far
higher among unmarried couples than married couples.
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/pdf_files/DomesticBattering.pdf
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Jun 24, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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Jody, I go to a Methodist Church that welcomes all people..Gay, bisexual, transgender,straight, black white,blue, brown.... Some of the gay couples have been together for- 10-40 years. After reading some of these posts, I feel blessed to have a church that welcomes all to worship God.
I usually don't talk about my beliefs, it's very personnal for me....I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 24, 2008 - 02:00am PT
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" After reading some of these posts, I feel blessed to have a church that welcomes all to worship God."
My church lets gays attend worship services.But they may not preach the homosexual lefestyle or hold church office. What churches do not allow gays to worship?
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Jun 24, 2008 - 02:01am PT
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Jody,Jennie, Yeah, with big strings attached! I don't believe it! I GIVE UP!!! Must use my ignore button..
Edit: My Pastor treats Gays like everyone else..It called People..humans..
Not Gay People..Just People. In Church and out of church..Just people..
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 24, 2008 - 02:03am PT
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Yes, preaching homosexual lifestyle, in church, is a BIG string !
Nita, our bishop or congregation members don't refer to them as gays in church. The worship of God is the focus, there, not saint/sinner distinctions. And no segregated chapels either
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 24, 2008 - 02:04am PT
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Maybe if Gay relationships sometimes run into trouble, that introducing more commitment, like marraige, would help.
Maybe if people accepted them more and they feared judgement, denial, and persecution less, then their relationships would get healthier as well
Peace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 24, 2008 - 02:17am PT
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Jennie,
Yes.. People are violent. Are you going to say heterosexual relationships are immoral because they are violent? No.. of course not. So using statistics to say that homosexual relations are bad or immoral is just silly. Humans with egos and carnal minds are violent. The solution is the Christ mind, but most folks wont want to try to understand this because to them God is an angry judgmental being in the sky who is just looking for an excuse to judge people.
That, in my opinion, is too bad. They wont see that God is Love and Power , not just love and not just power, because we seem to focus more energy in judging people then we do in Loving them.
Do you think Homosexuals feel loved by the church? Aren't we God's representatives? I have no doubt that the laws of Karma will cause people to reap what they sow, so I don't have to add to it.
It would be useful for Christians to understand why God says homosexuality is immoral. I wonder when they will start asking that question, or do they continue to believe that all revelation stopped with Jesus and the apostles.
Hopefully Christians will wake up and see that God is still talking to us. The bible is incomplete and is flawed. Or why would we not continue to allow slavery today. It isn't banned anywhere in the Bible, in fact there are rules on how to do it properly.
Did America screw up by banning slavery?
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jun 24, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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Wow, go away to climb for the weekend and then find that this thing has blown up.
Jody wrote:
"Crusher, what's wrong? Jennie make some points that hit close to home?"
Pfft - that's funny - what, are you 12? Because I support the right of gay people to marry that means I'm gay? (And if I were, who cares?!). Then I guess a whole bunch of us have now come out of the closet here - oh, whoops, wait a minute - actually it's YOU and JENNIE! I mean it's you gay-bashers who keep turning out to be closeted after all.
Jennie just gives a very sheltered, closed-minded opinion, which she is certainly entitled to. However treating our homosexual brothers and sisters like they're anything less than fellow human beings deserving of all the same rights as the rest of us, in this day and age, with all the really big and tragic problems we have in this world, is truly sad. "We have them here too" she says - what, are they aliens? Who talks like that?!!!
Thank you to John M., Karl, Degaine, Nita, Khanom, DMT and others who said it way better than I could.
The issue at hand is an issue of human rights. Whether or not you feel homosexuality is right or wrong, it's here, it's with us out in the open and it's not going away. If you are against it then don't associate with gay people or frequent gay establishments, don't go to a gay neighborhood or city, don't practice your religion in a house of worship that is accepting of "them". Live how you want to. BUT LIVE AND LET LIVE.
Honestly - what harm does it do to you personally if gay people marry?
And you can cite all the research you want - each side has their research negating the other side's research and so on ad infinitum. We can spin until the cows come home...bottom line, whatever other peoples' relationships are like, most of them will never have any direct bearing on YOU - so why be so concerned with others and why not mind you own house?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2008 - 11:46am PT
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Homosexual trad climbers!! Now you are going to get people's knickers in a knott. By 'disinfect', do you mean bolting?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:05pm PT
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"Jennie, I call bull. Who are you generalizing about? There is a surprising number of gay people here in the park and I am friends to many of them. I have helped them through all of the same things that heterosexual couples go through. So please save your generalizing for yourself."
John, I should have mentioned this last night, but I wasn't suggesting you were a flatterer or backslapper, or indifferent to gays in need. Yes, I was generalizing from my own experience. I believe my point was valid but it wasn't aimed at you, personally.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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"Jennie just gives a very sheltered, closed-minded opinion, which she is certainly entitled to. However treating our homosexual brothers and sisters like they're anything less than fellow human beings deserving of all the same rights as the rest of us, in this day and age, with all the really big and tragic problems we have in this world, is truly sad. "We have them here too" she says - what, are they aliens? Who talks like that?!!! "
Its amazing to me how much competitive mileage and socio-political hay some of you can make out of my statement "We have homosexuals in Idaho, too!" Sorry I'm not in lockstep with Southwest political correctness. Where I live such observations do not bring on gasps of horror or stoning.
What many of you have conveniently ignored is the fact Jody, myself (and others) have said, repeatedly, we're not against gays civil or property rights or their rights to make covenants with one another. We are against STATE RECOGNIZED gay marriage.
Adolescents sometimes have gender identification crisis. I hope the State of California recognizing homosexual marriage and thus equating it with heterosexual marriage doesn't lead to your children making careless decisions that affect them in a negative way. "Homosexuality must be KOOL! LOOK, the state recognizes it."
I won't weary you with more of my opinion. Its obvious most of you here opt for head-in-the-sand, "Oh but we're so progressive" blindness. And as was obvious yesterday morning, chomping at the bit to tilt the context of my posts in order to make "heroic" counterposts in your own honor.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Hey Jennie, Thanks for responding.
You wrote,
"What many of you have conveniently ignored is the fact Jody, myself (and others) have said, repeatedly, we're not against gays civil or property rights or their rights to make covenants with one another. We are against STATE RECOGNIZED gay marriage"
I wish that this were true, if it is true for you, then that is great. I personally don't care what a relationship is called. Jody on the other hand has indicated that he would be against Homosexual couples receiving the same privileges as heterosexual couples, that being social security benefits.
John
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:24pm PT
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"This is disengenuouos AT BEST and most likely a bald-faced lie."
"The anti-gay-marriage coalitions are in large part against gay civil unions, gay rights and the gay-way entirely."
I have no connection to any anti-gay coalition. Why don't you try Communism, Islam or Scientology, Dingus. Thats sure to get some hits.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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John,
I believe Jody opposes Social Security entirely, but I should let him speak for himself on that.
Im not contrary to Social Security or Gov't pensions for gays. Or appropriate and fair distribution of property, largesse after breakup of homosexual union.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:31pm PT
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There's something quite interesting I've noticed about Gays, and it hasn't been mentioned yet on this thread. Further,it's quite pertinent to the various issues discussed: Gays only sportclimb.
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Degaine
climber
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:36pm PT
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Jennie wrote: “its amazing to me how much competitive mileage and socio-political hay some of you can make out of my statement "We have homosexuals in Idaho, too!"
I remember well an educational commercial that was on TV a lot when I was a kid (early / mid eighties) that address prejudice / bigotry. Kid and his grandfather in a boat fishing. Kid says something to the effect “I have black friends”, etc., grandfather says that prejudice to distinguish black, white, asian, etc., friends. They should all just be his friends.
The above statement about which everyone keeps hounding you demonstrates a clear prejudice on your part.
Jennie wrote: “What many of you have conveniently ignored is the fact Jody, myself (and others) have said, repeatedly, we're not against gays civil or property rights or their rights to make covenants with one another. We are against STATE RECOGNIZED gay marriage.”
You and Jody have conveniently ignored is the fact that myself and others have brought up the US Constitution and equal protection under the law, the bill of rights, etc., and stating that either the federal government recognizes both in order to keep its nose in the marriage business, or it should get out of the marriage business altogether.
Jennie wrote: “Adolescents sometimes have gender identification crisis. I hope the State of California recognizing homosexual marriage and thus equating it with heterosexual marriage doesn't lead to your children making careless decisions that affect them in a negative way. "Homosexuality must be KOOL! LOOK, the state recognizes it."
That paragraph is so f’ed up I don’t know where to begin. I’ll let someone with more time on their hands address it.
Jennie wrote: “I won't weary you with more of my opinion. Its obvious most of you here opt for head-in-the-sand, "Oh but we're so progressive" blindness.
Wow, that’s a cop out. We have our head in the sand? In my case, I never claimed to “be so progressive” as you put it.
But do tell, since I apparently have my head in the sand, to what am I blind? You keep mentioning (as does Jody) this “homosexual lifestyle”, to what exactly are you referring? Care to shed any light on the apparent heterosexual lifestyle that I am currently leading?
Jennie wrote: “And as was obvious yesterday, chomping at the bit to tilt the context of my posts in order to make "heroic" counterposts in your own honor.
No one has to tilt your posts, it’s pretty clear where you stand.
But I’ll just say that your posts are pretty aggressive, as are Jody’s with regard to this particular subject, and that contributes to the types of responses your receiving.
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:39pm PT
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Jennie says,"Adolescents sometimes have gender identification crisis. I hope the State of California recognizing homosexual marriage and thus equating it with heterosexual marriage doesn't lead to your children making careless decisions that affect them in a negative way. "Homosexuality must be KOOL! LOOK, the state recognizes it".
.........
Jennie, I doubt that, because- who wants to be discriminated against, kids want to fit in.
I have come to the conclusion... that some people really are NOT AWARE of how there words hurt others.
off to work- bye.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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"Adolescents sometimes have gender identification crisis"
GIC's? Really? And is the idea behind a GIC is that this is 'natural' or simply a matter of suburban confusion that, left to their own devices, adolescents will on their own 'do the right thing'. How interesting! God only know how easily influenced such youths are. And god forbid they stumble 'under the influence' and come down on the gay side of life?
The clear back beat and unconscious innuendo from Idaho appears to be that, given enough time, any ['natural'] right-thinking kid will come to his or her senses unless unless of course they are lured to the darkside by gay marriage. Given the abysmal divorce statistics for hetero marriages which you and god condone it's pretty clear gays would be hard pressed to do worse than hetero marriage. And the fact you folks in Idaho, along with a lot of other red states, have some of the worst divorce rates in America makes me wonder all the more if christian 'family values' isn't something more sprayed about than lived by conservatives.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jun 24, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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"Homosexuality must be KOOL! LOOK, the state recognizes it".
Well....if anything, being 'state-sanctioned,' will reduce the cool factor of any belief, behavior or way of being; that's pretty much been proven throughout history. I mean - "Drive 55!" sure didn't make it cool to go slow on the road. Raising the drinking age to 21 didn't make it cool to wait those extra virginal years between 18 and 21, either. Nor did allowing the vote at 18 make it cool to vote....
hmmm....
While it does seem to be cool to be playing at bisexuality these days, I think that when it comes to marriage, people will pretty much do exactly what has been being done for years and years. To wit; they will marry sometimes out of love, sometimes out of desperation, sometimes for convenience, sometimes under pressure compounded with an inability to stand up for themselves, probably impulsively while in the throes of fascination and infatuation(a real often-timer for the hetero crowd, it appears) and sometimes out of misplaced ideas of romanticism. Plus the numerous other reasons people find themselves(ala Meatloaf) "waiting for the end of time, so they can end their time with..."
Imagine - how many homosexual people have entered into heterosexual marriages? And what happens? they get to deal with it(or not, or some variation of dealing/not dealing). Well - now people can just as well find themselves in a marriage and realize "I can't TAKE it any more! I'm straight!!!!"
But probably not so much.....
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