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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Sep 13, 2007 - 10:43am PT
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Ok Jennie, let me reiterate,
" Cannot be proven wrong?" I would have thought that the burden of proof would rest very firmly with those making the claims of .....oh lets say... a tribe of Manasseh who came to the so-called New World in the sixth century B.C. and who spoke in a Hebrew dialect and wrote in reformed Egyprtian".
To be honest, the name you give this tribe is completely irrelevant. For anyone to take such claims seriously would require some concrete archeological evidence. I don't think thats unreasonable.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
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"another Piton Ron thread about Mormons" LOL
You think THIS is bad? Wait until I start a " Mormons with hammers" thread.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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I knew there was a Jewish conspiracy in all this !
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 01:05pm PT
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Maysho,
I, personally, did not go on a mission. One of my brothers went to Ohio as a missionary, my other two siblings have not served as missionaries. The other two were not interested in serving missions, with me it was a situation of personal unworthyness. In some mormon families most or all children serve missions. We weren't exactly the Mormon ideal, a very religious mother and a father, who climbed, but was not interested in religion.
As far as my take, I believe missions benefit if they are done properly. I wonder if many of those who serve are a little to young and immature. In my brothers case, he matured greatly in those two years.
All mormon missions are not proselytizing missions. Some go to build schools, shelters teach and help with agriculture. Some go on medical missions to places who are in need of medical care. Other faiths do the same. I agree with you that there is great need to serve the world's people in material ways. Mormon belief is that people have both material and spiritual needs, and the church should attempt to serve both.
I don't doubt your sincerity--we might disagree on whether serving material needs,alone, improves their situation.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 01:06pm PT
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"To be honest, the name you give this tribe is completely irrelevant. For anyone to take such claims seriously would require some concrete archeological evidence. I don't think thats unreasonable.
Jeremy,
I'm not saying your wanting concrete archeological evidence is UNREASONABLE. I would love archeological evidence myself. But my faith doesn't open and close on the hinges of tangible archeological proofs. How much tangible archeological evidence is there that Seven Wonders of the Ancient World actually existed? Only the Great Pyramid and vague hints of one or two others. How much solid archeological evidence of the Norman invasion of Britain do we have? Not a great deal. But we accept the historical accounts.
There are a number of mormon books out attempting to equivocate archeological sites in Central America with the Book of Mormon. I've read two and they make a good case in my mind. But they're conjecture, not concrete proof.
I choose to take the B.O.M. on faith, after actually studying it and coming to an understanding that its precepts have merit. I also pay Social Security taxes with the faith that I'll get the benefits years from now. I actually have MORE faith in the B.O.M. but Social Security is the law.
Also, the names of Biblical tribes may not be important to you. They are important to historians. But, what you believe is relevant and what you accept as true is your choice.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 13, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
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The key here, as always in these discussions, is faith. It allows you and others to believe things for which there is no good scientific explanation and for which there may never be.
I don't think there are any non-Mormon archeaologists or geneticists that think the BOM account is likely. It's basically on the same level as Hubbard's aliens and the Biblical literalists that believe humans and dinosaurs co-existed. To say nothing of the flying spaghetti monster folks.
But that doen't really matter on the faith front. As long as you have enough faith, scientific proof is not relavant. And while faith can be a strong positive force, too much of it can also have negative effects. Thus the MMM and al-Qaeda.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Sep 13, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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Jennie,
Are you still up in Twin or down in SL,UT?
We still need to climb.
-brendan
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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Stevep,
Scientific proof IS relevant, who is claiming it's not? Faith and Science are NOT diametrically opposed?
" And while faith can be a strong positive force, too much of it can also have negative effects. Thus the MMM and al-Qaeda."
Are you sure it's "too much faith" and perhaps not that faith became infected with pride and superimposed with selfish intentions?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 01:38pm PT
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Brendan,
I'm in Idaho Falls. I'll send you an email.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 13, 2007 - 01:55pm PT
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" Ron and I are the pure Hebrew leaders of LDS, that's why we're skipping temple today on Rosh Hashanah."
fat, I thought you were African.
I've given thought to joining Werner's church but I can't pronounce the words they use.
What keeps me from being a Jew is I can't find a decent Kosher ham for Easter dinner.
Guess I'll remain a wayfarin' stranger.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 13, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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I think you're teasing Ron and Fattrad with the prospect of Israel being able to claim 'First Nation' aboriginal rights to the United States. Chief Piton and his loyal head of staff Fattrad would rule the rez with an iron monger's fist, when they could be found at all. But, then again, plural marriage in the form of harems would likely be mandatory under their rule.
[ Note: Ouch - I think your cue has been lanquishing on the teleprompter for at least a dozen posts at this point... }
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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Sep 13, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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Jennie, what about solid modern evidence concerning DNA?
The Indians of the Americas are supposed to descend from the Middle East, yet hundreds of thousands of blood samples have shown that their ancestors are originally from China, Mongolia, etc. NO evidence of a Mideast connection.
Pretty hard to contest that.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 13, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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It all makes perfect sense. It's the fattrad skinhead school of retribution
An Arab blows up someone in Iraq so the only logical response is for a gang of hooligans to murder an East Indian in Portland.
That wraps this whole thread up in one tidy package.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 02:48pm PT
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Quietpartner,
The DNA "proofs"are disputed. There are at least two books out on this. I could mail you one if you're interested
There is no statement in the B.O.M. that the peoples who came from the Middle East didn't inter marry with people who were already inhabiting parts of the New World. The B.O.M. does make statements about them encountering other peoples and civilizations. My opinion is there were already civilizations here when they arrived in sixth century B.C. which is well after people are supposed to have crossed the Bearing Strait into North America.
I would question the idea that hundreds of thousands of DNA profiles have been done on native Americans. DNA profiling is quite costly. Doing hundreds of thousands of profiles would cost researchers very large sums. The categorical analysis of tribal DNA markers can be done with fewer DNA profiles, I believe.
I don't have great knowledge of DNA profiling but I have read in anthropology texts that blood typology ratios in Mesoamerica are similar to those in the Middle East. But that, of course, is not proof.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Sep 13, 2007 - 03:32pm PT
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Jennie, I still got your back! LOL
This is great, your answers leave no need for me to comment. Your obviously more well read than me! I'll just continue following along. Thanks!
Faith is definitely key!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 04:00pm PT
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Thanks, No One. But your perspective is as important as mine. The group is getting tired of seeing my nametag on every other post.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 13, 2007 - 04:37pm PT
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 04:40pm PT
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Great links ! Kon Tiki is a good read. I don't know if there are recent printings but old copies are still floating around used book sales and in libraries.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 04:57pm PT
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Ouch,
If you took the Lord out of the Quartet, that would be a shoo-in for Deseret News cartoon competition.
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