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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 01:39am PT
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Well do you kill animals in mechanized industrial slaughterhouses to eat them?
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John Moosie
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 01:42am PT
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Hey Werner,
When did God ever need us to protect God? God needs us to be the light in this dark world. The light which is unconditional Love. That is what we are called to Be. Certainly if I can protect something with my words and my presence then that is Love, but to physically attack another over an image. No thank you. I would prefer to Love the God within the person doing the attacking by showing them that there is no need to destroy what they fear.
Read Ghandi on non violent confrontation.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 01:46am PT
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"Well do you kill animals in mechanized industrial slaughterhouses to eat them?"
Animals do not have a soul. I do think that killing them to eat them is wrong. I still eat meat but I am working to let that attachment go. I don't know what to do about the use of leather. I like leather shoes.
Haha....I still have a bit of work to do to be all that Jesus is.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 01:48am PT
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Ghandi failed in his complete realization (incomplete). Violence ultimately killed him to show the supremacy of the complete truth.
He preached ahimsa nonviolence.
Himsa is also required to be complete.
You break your bones badly and the surgeon will make violence towards your body (cut) in order to make mend/heal.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 01:50am PT
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Animals have soul you rascal.
Look your dog in the eye ...... and kill him. You will see the fear in his eyes the window to the soul.
You have fear and the dog has fear.
The plant will grow toward the sun.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 12, 2007 - 01:57am PT
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hey jo-dy,
in case you have not noticed you're gaining no ground here.
seriously, if converting hearts and minds and souls is yuor goal as a deadicated evangelical christian, you'd find your time much better spend at boldering.com or rockclimbing.com.
much more open-mnded peeps there. you're just spinnng your wheels with these cretins.
they DO NOT care about god.
or you.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 02:03am PT
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You said that wes I didn't.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 02:05am PT
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That is only the reflection of your own soul my friend. Although some animals can obtain a soul by being Love. So perhaps you are correct.
Now I have prayer work to do so I will say good night. Thank you Werner and Jody for this very stimulating conversation and thank you Allaha. I still have work to do but it is good to know that you are on this Earth. My heart was feeling empty until you challenged me to be more. Thank you. My prayers go with you and with you Nature, since you implied that you are lurking :-) haha......
"hey jo-dy,
in case you have not noticed you're gaining no ground here.
seriously, if converting hearts and minds and souls is yuor goal as a deadicated evangelical christian, you'd find your time much better spend at boldering.com or rockclimbing.com.
much more open-mnded peeps there. you're just spinnng your wheels with these cretins.
they DO NOT care about god.
or you"
Troll.......haha.....such animosity. Jody knows that I care about him. I wouldn't spend so much time trying to help him if I didn't. Good night......
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 12, 2007 - 02:28am PT
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"The root Hebrew root in that passage only refers to criminal killing, i.e. murder. "
Oh, do you speak ancient hebrew? This is a point of some debate among rabbinical scholars (who at least do speak modern hebrew.) To say you know one interpretation the truth is just to conveniently align what you want to believe with what you hope was meant. I'm not impressed.
Even the pope disagrees with you. Are the resources of the catholic church insufficient but somehow those of your church are capable of finding the one truth from this statement?
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 02:33am PT
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We have come to this material world and accepted material bodies made of earth, water, fire, air and ether and subtle bodies made from mind, intelligence and false ego. So the gross material and subtle bodies are coverings on our original spiritual bodies.
God does not have such coverings. God does not have a material body. Even when he appears within this world He does so in His original transcendental body.
This material world is his external energy.
The Supreme Lord is represented throughout everything, whatever you see, matter or spirit or anything, physical, chemical, whatever you can give name, there are so many things. But they are not separated from God. God is linked up in everywhere.
And still he is a person. Most of the world sees him as impersonal.
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climbinginchico
Trad climber
Chico and Groveland, CA
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May 12, 2007 - 03:45am PT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2007 - 04:32am PT
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I still want to know if virii and bacteria go to heaven or hell? Or let's just walk up the taxonomy of life and tell me at what point all this business applies. Only humans? Are only humans alive? Are Tigers born with sin? If not, wouldn't it be a sin to kill a perfect life? How about Syphillis? It's just trying to make a living, is it perfect or did it divide with sin? And given your body is comprised of ten times more bacteria cells than human ones, just which go to heaven? Or do they go together?
Can't think of anything much more egocentric, thankless, and just plain wretched than standing the top of a pyramid of life that supports you, yet somehow thinking you are standing on hallowed flat ground, bathed in a celestial light, and 'the' only creature imbued with a 'soul'. Hard to think of a more souless perspective than that from where I sit tonight.
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Trusty Rusty
Social climber
Tahoe area
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May 12, 2007 - 06:21am PT
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Healyje-
God might be something like a monster, salty. . .then again possibly like our mother. And though we've cooked Jesus meat to BBQ black, something remains no?.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2007 - 11:21am PT
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Mother was nothing like that, I met her. But so long as God is on the BBQ, Nature might as well come up with a good crispy Jesushi roll given how hungry everyone is for salvation. Personally, I think it's a convenient absolution they're after and don't mind getting it at their nearest human-centric, spiritual McDonalds. I just don't know if your e-coli will forgive you for taking the easy way out, however.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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May 12, 2007 - 02:17pm PT
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I stopped attending church - and believing in much of the whole concept - when I became disillusioned.
What I'd thought sacred was instead entertainment;
the altar I'd worshipped before was merely a stage.
The sacrament that I'd been taught was Jesus' blood and body, just grape juice and crackers.
The beginning of it all, disproven by the monstrous amount of demonstrable evidence of evolution.
The blind eyes of Faith were opened; Knowledge (reality and truth - real truth) was waiting just outside.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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May 12, 2007 - 04:15pm PT
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There is actually very little debate among rabbinical scholars about the meaning of the sixth commandment. The mistranslation by the accomplished scholars who rendered the King James version of the Bible could have been caught by just about any Jewish schoolchild.
"Kill" is a broadly termed English verb that defines the taking of life among all types of living creatures. That generalization is expressed in Hebrew through the verb "harag". Yet "harag" does not appear in the dispensation of the Ten Commandments. The verb that appears in the Torah in the sixth commandment is "ratsah" which probably 99% of Hebrew scholars render as "murder" or the shedding of innocent blood.
How the popes interpret the original Hebrew should be taken with a grain of salt. The Roman church was concerned keeping medieval masses in line. Indeed, much of the wealth of the times was held by the church and individual catholic clergymen. Thou shalt not kill was used as a basis for civil law and preventing uprisings by the masses against the prevailing feudal systems and the redistribution of wealth or overthrow of oppressive kings and nobles.
The translation to "Thou shalt not kill" was actually done in France long before the King James authorized version of the Bible.. "Thou shalt not kill" was also used as the basis for Protestant criminal law just as "Thou shalt not steal" was used to delineate property law. (Not a bad thing since no civil society can have individual people killing other individuals simply because they don't like them or think they deserve death)
But the original sixth commandment was a prohibition against the shedding of the blood of innocents. That interpretation is clearly borne out by the history of that era. The wars between the Israelites and Canaanites took place within a short time of receiving the Ten Commandments and were quite bloody. The Hebrews were not idiots even though they lived in barbaric times. Obviously, they would have seen the contradiction between an all encompassing prohibition against killing and the wars they were enjoined to fight in Canaan.
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Ouch!
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 07:18pm PT
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Jody should call that bellicose god he created, Ares or maybe Mars.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 10:50pm PT
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Now, after taking instruction from Christ, first of all they killed Christ. That means they could not understand the instruction.
Therefore, their first business was to kill the instructor. And following that, two thousand years have passed, and still they are killing.
So, since when have they accepted the teachings of Lord Christ? Can you answer this?
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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May 12, 2007 - 10:54pm PT
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Thank you, Jennie/Jody, for providing, with unparalleled perfection, yet another fine example of why those who profess the loudest to believe in and love the God of Unconditional Love, are always the first and most adamant to justify killing others.
So let's see...how many different definitions of Thou Shalt Not Kill can we come up with just on this forum alone?
1. Thou shalt not kill--unless they're on land that you want
2. Thou shalt not kill--unless they're skin is a different color
3. Thou shalt not kill--unless they have oil that you want
4. Thou shalt not kill--unless your country is run by a madman
5. Thou shalt not kill--unless you can prove the Bible-writers of old actually meant thou art free to kill whomever thou wishes whenever thou wishes because killing is so good for the world as a whole
And that's only the beginning
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2007 - 11:01pm PT
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So, every time L takes shower she kills many bacteria and germs.
Oh you Killer ......
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