Anyone want to help a brother out?

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thebravecowboy

climber

The Good Places

Feb 25, 2019 - 05:23pm PT

I love the hair splitting semantics about this problem. Pretty sure that dying alone in an alley in N Lansing in winter is a fact whether or not we call it disease or weakness or XXX's own damn fault of his own.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Feb 25, 2019 - 05:40pm PT

Warren couldn't quit because deep down he didn't want to quit. Absolutely no one can make you quit. the doctor, the judge, your lover. None of them can do it. Only you can quit and then only when you actually want to... I know so many drunks and I have been there. 23years working in restaurants/bars. So many of my friends that feel that I betrayed them by quitting.. some of them the doctor told them decades ago to quit and they are still in it. many have expressed a desire to cut back but they also admit that they still really like the juice and don't want to quit. Others are so wrapped up in their identity as partiers that they can't even fathom quitting. You have to want to quit more than you want that next drink... Until you get there you will still be one moment away from that next drink regardless of what medication or court order you are under...

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Feb 25, 2019 - 05:45pm PT

I had a friend who went out at 32 yrs old. went in the hospital with kidney failure. Went on a wild turkey cocaine bender as soon as they let him out of the hospital... He defiantly did not want to quit...

WBraun

climber

Feb 25, 2019 - 06:01pm PT

Some people are not even allowed to quit in this lifetime due to their karma .....

SC seagoat

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?

Feb 25, 2019 - 06:13pm PT

Why anyone would think "I can handle it, I'll be fine"

Because we live in a world of “the rules don’t apply to me”. Actually pushing the envelope of gravity is a hardcore characteristic of climbers. Pushing the envelope and confident you’ll come out ok on the other side is standard practice of any high intensity pursuits.... climbing, BASE jumping, extreme skiing ... the list goes on and on... It’s too bad that for some the preferred high risk activity is drugs and/or alcohol. Giving over control has been something I struggle to understand. But that doesn’t mean I dismiss or care less about those I know well or feel close to that have given over self control to drugs, alcohol or any other high risk endeavor without fully preparing for the consequences of failure.

I care deeply for Brandon and wish for him a path that will bring him health and opportunity.

Susan

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Feb 25, 2019 - 06:39pm PT

I think we’re a sum of the little things we do or neglect to do every day - our minds and bodies slowly and firmly adapt. Years later the gap between ourselves and someone who was just like us except for a few small things years ago - the distance between can become seemingly uncrossable. The guy who can run a 3 hr marathon because they ran just a little every single day vs the guy who would have to expend incredible will power and life change just to be able to walk the thing and finish. That’s pretty much my view in a nutshell on drinking and most other related matters of mental and physical health.

Again, nothing’s going to change until something changes. IMO, again, if he stays in that house, nothing else will change.

zBrown

Ice climber

Feb 25, 2019 - 06:48pm PT

If you ask John Combs what his biggest worry is, he'll say: "How will I feed Red?"

Red is actually white. He's a labradoodle rescue, just tall enough for Combs to pet if he reaches over the armrest of his wheelchair. Combs, 42, has cerebral palsy. He has difficulty speaking. But he has no difficulty saying the line most Americans have heard at least once: "Welcome to Walmart!"

Combs has one of Walmart's trademark front-door jobs: He's a "people greeter" at a store in Vancouver, Wash. But, he was told, come April 25 his job is going away. And he is not alone. According to Walmart, greeters are being removed at about 1,000 stores around the country.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Feb 25, 2019 - 07:31pm PT

No one wants to continue down a path that leads to death,

I disagree... there are plenty of addicts that really don't want to live. From my limited exposure I'd posit most addictions have little or nothing to do with the substance and everything to do with a failed attempt to self medicate (or even clear self-destruction) due to a much more important underlying untreated mental condition. Common things like anxiety, depression, and even psychosis are at the core of many so afflicted.

I wholey agree to classify addiction as a disease is probably misguided. It's a symptom, one of a broad spectrum.

gruzzy

Social climber

socal

Feb 25, 2019 - 07:56pm PT

Ill give money to people begging on the streets all day long
Wouldnt even consider giving money to someone living in a house, thinking about buying said house, probably sitting on a comfortable couch as opposed to standing at a noisy dirty intersection getting yelled at and spit on

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Feb 25, 2019 - 08:14pm PT

It really seems that AA is the one who pushes for alcoholism as a disease mindset, for whatever reason. The recent literature bring up the very same points as above, you can’t cure a real disease by trying hard.

I think there is a way to bridge the different perspectives here, between "you're just not trying hard enough" vs. "trying hard is not enough."

Don't get hung up on whether it is a disease or not- that's just a label. Calling it a disease does not excuse a person from accountability for fixing it, and those who misuse the "disease" label to play the victim card are just manipulating that label to serve their own avoidance. More important than the label, is to identify the gap between trying hard in ineffective ways that one knows (which is essentially all addictive/avoidance behaviors!) versus trying hard in a way that works.

I am not an alcoholic or drug addict, but I grew up as the oldest child of a single parent who was (trying ineffectively to treat her own childhood traumas and manic-depression), and I've had my share of emotional issues to overcome. The biggest way it manifested in my life so far was problems during my first marriage. Over time I recognized familiar situations and patterns that I could predict and brace myself to "try harder" to avoid, but it seemed like no matter what I did, how hard I tried, I couldn't avoid it. I was intellectually aware of it all, but somehow powerless in the moment when it really mattered.

After years of trying and repeatedly failing, I surrendered and recognized that my intellectual/analytical approach was just plain not working. No amount of trying harder was possible for me. My map of reality was inadequate. I recognized that I needed to try a different approach, and that led me down the emotional engagement path of "healing my inner child" and facing the various demons that I had pretended were behind me after surviving childhood.

While avoiding-the-demons approach had seemed to mostly work for me as an adult (and this I think is the tie-in and common thread for all types of addictive or avoidance behaviors), it had undesirable side-effects in some situations. In my case, the undesirable side-effect was that my brain was strewn with off-limits areas to maintain the denial, and landmines of emotional energy were vulnerable to be triggered during conflicts with my ex-wife. That is a bad scenario to be in with another unstable person who has their own issues and seeks to trigger the landmines. It made me very easy to manipulate in an unhealthy relationship, and even if I were suddenly in a healthy relationship, I would be unable to hold up my end. These landmines represented all the ways I was incapable of being an independent adult, which is a prerequisite for a healthy relationship. If the other person has a meltdown, one needs to be able to maintain an emotional center until the other can recover. Failure to do this is what leads to relationship drama.

So I had given up on the strictly intellectual/analytical approach because it really was not working to just try harder. It took me years of trying harder before I accepted that. But when I applied my energy in a different way, by focusing on confronting my demons, acknowledging the original hurts and learning to sooth myself, over time I defused many of the emotional landmines. It was still a lot of work, and a form of "trying harder"- but also trying harder within a different and more effective framework (emotional and spiritual and physical working with the intellectual) that could lead to a better outcome.

Even a few years into that process, I had some major setbacks with my ex-wife and that is what led me toward divorce. I had reached a point of accepting that some situations I was unable to manage myself even with my new tools, and I was no longer willing to play the same game with ex.

Ironically, part of recognizing a better path was understanding the way that "try harder" contributed to my ongoing failures. It was an endless cycle of try-harder, fail, feel guilty and try harder, fail, feel guilty and try harder.... That sounds awfully familiar and universal to folks trying and failing to overcome negative patterns.

The "feel guilty and try harder" phase is where I sowed the seeds for future failures. In my case, I tolerated stuff I should not have, failed to defend my boundaries that I needed at that stage of my being, and that set up a pattern of righteous indignation/anger that grew over a period of months. I didn't fully understand the nature of that at the time I finally walked away from my ex. But in hindsight I had it intuitively, recognizing that my only healthy option was to walk away, because I couldn't make her change, and I was no longer willing to play my part in that cycle, and I couldn't tolerate how she acted with me.

Lots of share here, with only loose surface parallels to those fighting alcoholism, but the really key commonality is understanding the issue of "trying harder" at a much deeper level, and recognizing how "trying harder" might actually be part of the problem. I think the emotional underpinnings are very much the same with just different negative behaviors as the ineffective coping mechanism.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber

Feb 26, 2019 - 06:19am PT

Since I'm purportedly a minister to the AA Way, I'll add that often in meetins someone might say "dis ease," that's what I feel - ill at ease."

So all you no medical docs go right ahead and know better than those who make a dedication to the sport of excessive drinking. Just remember that when someone with little to no experience in your field tries to explain that you're doing it wrong in whatever project you're working on.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Mill Valley, Ca

Feb 26, 2019 - 06:40am PT

The reason it didn't work for me is listening to other's sob stories ad naseum was pointless for me. I've lived it. That and it seemed like a lot of folks came to AA meetings after having a few. AA meetings made me want to get a drink. I'm not alone in that.

Haha that is so true! Years ago I checked out some meetings before I decided I was KNOTT an "alcoholic" (whatever that means). Day in and day out, the room pretty much reeked of booze! A friend who was in AA called the meetings "depression sessions". On the bright side, no matter how miserable your life was, you couldn't help but feel better about yourself because everyone else was so morose and mopey. ;-)

I checked out AA because I felt I was drinking a bit much (3-5 low-ABV beers a day), but at the end of the day there was simply no way I was ever going to get past the 1st step, because I could never be made to believe that I was powerless over any addiction or behavior - much less that only God (or higher power, lower power, whatever) could prevent me from doing self-destructive things.

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Feb 26, 2019 - 07:50am PT

As mentioned calling it a disease or not may just be semantics but I don’t think calling it a disease (a disease in the general sense is just something that impairs the functioning of an organism) equates to shirking responsibility or stating you don’t have control over it. I guess some people use it that way but I don’t.

I think It is a choice but can be an extremely difficult one. If someone will die if they don’t quit of course many of them want to quit. But they also want to keep drinking. If someone chooses to keep drinking and die (who otherwise wants to live) that shows you how hard it can be to quit (for them).

I’d posit that it’s often when the pros of quitting outweighs the cons, and someone figures out a strategy that works for them that they quit. Like the phrase hitting rock bottom. They haven’t gotten to the point where the pros outweigh the cons until the hit that point.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber

Feb 26, 2019 - 09:20am PT

So - the person who gets diabetes due to eating options comes to a point where the doc says "You've got to change the eating choices you have made."

The person lives in a neighborhood where the "grocery store" fresh produce consists of a few soft potatoes and a bin of fruit fly buzzing onions, but other than that - canned goods and processed foods are what is available.

Nonetheless, they sign up for Blue Apron at the absurd markup, so they can get some fresh produce and healthy protein options into their diet. Now they just have to find a way to make sure the delivery isn't stolen before they get home after work at their second job.

"Doc," says the patient. "I'm willing! Now, about this odor and discoloration in my foot. It's kind of scary. What can be done?"

"Well," says doc. "You ate crappily for many a year, and it affected your circulation, so now you have a gangrenous foot. That's not good. Left unchecked, that'll kill ya. But let's leave that to serve as a reminder as to what you did to yourself. That might serve as incentive to eat healthfully for the rest of your life."

Or - any of you guys ever got a sexually transmitted disease? Did that disease manifest itself out of the clear blue sky like a virgin birth? Or did you make a choice that inadvertently brought that illness to you? How is your herpes, Hep C, HIV, Syphilis, Gonohreah or even just crabs somehow justified to be in a disease category when you can't allow that a person who is now having pancreatic issues, liver damage due to drinking may have a disease?

Let me ask this, of some of those who are vexed at "their alcoholics:" Has it ever occurred to you that you might have some skin in the game? Do you justify cheating on your spouse because they are an alcoholic and all that entails? I know one person who used that as an excuse to go so far as bringing sexual partners into their house when the spouse was supposed to be away(and then got served with divorce when the person unexpectedly returned during). But thing is - that person cheated on their spouse early in the marriage and consistently, and lied and the spouse knew darned well it was lies. The spouse began drinking as a way to cope, and years later - the cheating spouse is blaming the alcoholism for their infidelity.

Maybe their alcoholism allows us to point the finger at them instead of dealing with our own unwillingness to change. How many a person has stayed with an alcoholic because at least they paid the mortgage, or did the laundry and had a meal on the table each night, or were a wild ride in the sack?

Anyway - I have work to do today, so better get to it. Good day, from an alcoholic who hasn't had a drink in 8,219days, and doesn't see any need to "blame my disease" to get pity or relapse.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Mill Valley, Ca

Feb 26, 2019 - 09:57am PT

BJ - those South Park clips are hilarious! Thanks for sharing. ;-)

I have nothing against AA; clearly it has helped countless people, and continues to do so. I just take exception to the mentality that the 12 Step program is the only way, or that people who drink to their detriment are inarguably helpless victims of a disease.

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Feb 26, 2019 - 10:02am PT

Thanks NutAgain, as usual yours was an excellent post.

Gambling can also be considered a disease. There is actually a drug that people take to curb their impulse to gamble. Gambling and alcoholism can likey both be associated with some physiological condition or gene sequence we are unaware of. Some people are predisposed to suffer from either "disease"

John M

climber

Feb 26, 2019 - 10:11am PT

or that people who drink to their detriment are inarguably helpless victims of a disease.

maybe you should reframe your understanding of what a disease is. People get cancer, that doesn't mean that they are helpless. There are choices that they can make and changes that they can make to deal with it. But often they need help to complete those changes. Lots of diseases are that way.

You might also consider how you portray AA meetings and or the levels of drink that constitute alcoholism. there is a vast difference between 3 to 5 beers a day and drinking to passing out, ending up in place you don't know or with people you don't know.

makes me think about how people define epics. There is the person with little experience who gets benighted on a climb and has to overnight someplace with no gear versus say Malcolm Daly's epic, or Jim Donini's time in that snow cave. Pretty wide range there.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Feb 26, 2019 - 10:38am PT

I see AA or counseling or whatever have you as a parent child relationship.

I've had a few life changing experiences in support groups and counseling where I was shown the way, where my parenting fell short, and a few wastes of time and money as well.

It sort of depends on who you end up with and how well it fits the root cause of your issues - which IMO is a completely random occurrence outside of your insight and control - unfortunately - and are you really ready for it?

Eventually you have to grow up and leave the relationship - or are you avoiding it? Hard to tell sometimes.

Also - I've found the people with the most awareness and insight into your issues can also be the ones most likely to filter you out of their lives - and the ones with the least generally need similar help themselves and misery loves company - another conundrum in the process of self awareness and improvement - good mentors and those willing to guide you through your weaknesses can be hard to come by.

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2019 - 11:13am PT

Hey gang, haven’t been on the internet for a few days so I haven’t checked the thread. I’m assuming that it’s the usual mix of positive, negative, and mocking. Fine with me. I’ll have to catch up on the drama I created soon.