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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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In direct response to Chris' query, What are your thoughts? :
My thought is that whoever Winans is, he/she is exercising his right to express his opinion. People do that in 100s of posts a day on this Forum. The difference is, Winans probably has the legal right (not being a lawyer, I don't know for sure) to express those opinions to advertisers, whereas the people on the Forum express their opinions at your discretion since you own the site.
It seems like what you are really asking is, what should you do, or what would WE do, under these circumstances.
What I would do, if I owned the site: I personally do not enjoy and avoid/ignore threads about politics, religion, and women's body parts. If I OWNED this site, I would have a moratorium on those threads and it wouldn't bother ME if people left in droves because my policy made the Forum "boring" to them. And it wouldn't bother ME if the Forum made less money because those changes. But I have NEVER complained to you about these things because YOU OWN IT, and I presume the Forum operates exactly the way you want it to.
As to what YOU should do, that's your business. What kind of Forum do YOU want? People have been complaining to you for years about over-posters, extreme nastiness between certain users, and too many politics/religion/tits&ass threads. Lots of good suggestions have been floated over the years, but have never been implemented.
Maybe I should recommend that you just say F*%k it and close the whole Forum down, but oh, wait! Then all the CLIMBING info that gets exchanged here wouldn't happen, and THAT would be a real loss to the climbing community.
Phyl
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 28, 2015 - 10:41am PT
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Any advertiser that cannot distinguish between positions officially advocated by Supertopo itself and the opinions expressed by unaffiliated individuals in a forum context is too stupid and PC to do business with.
Please, Chris, let us know what businesses have been swayed by this tripe and thus have quit advertising here, so that we can boycott them on the basis of their stupidity alone.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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No one on this forum is a racist. (Except when Norton posted the picture of Obama with a bone in his nose and calling him a ni$$ar)
yes, I did do that a couple of years ago, yeah I got angry with a right wing prick
to mock the thinly veiled pure racism against President Obama that a certain poster who is still active here was vomiting at the mouth with
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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Any advertiser that cannot distinguish between positions officially advocated by Supertopo itself and the opinions expressed by unaffiliated individuals in a forum context is too stupid and PC to do business with.
I think they are smart enough to realize that the unaffiliated individuals are ALLOWED, in this case (by the moderators), and there's MEANS to prevent such content. The advertisers are reacting to inaction by moderators (or Chris himself), not the posting of unsavory and controversial content by individuals. And they have a right to such a decision, to call them too stupid or PC to do business with when they are possibly making a sound business decision, for them, is sort of disingenuous...and dare I say, stupid...
I think there's forums out there where such people can go post that stuff in freedom, a climbing forum is not and should not ackomidate them or feel forced to by peers or the community. Especially if you face such allegations and outside pressure. The rants and content by some posters here is distasteful, but I have no opinion on that, I enjoy the color, but if there's adverse effects then you must react to shore up the ship. Sure, fighting for free speech and the right for everyone here to be themselves and open is an honorable thing to fight for, I would do the same and have in the past. But I must say, when it effects your personal life and people truly get nasty, it's simply not worth it anymore.
Also, because Chris (arguably a public figure through fame) has decided to present himself as the face and name behind Supertopo, there is no protection against slander, even if it's proven this character is doing this intentionally to hit your pocketbook and lying to do so..you are open to such criticism by being a public figure and standing on the world stage. You must understand you are held to a higher standard than anyone else posting here and therefor it is your responsibility to moderate. I think everyone, who believes in free speech and open forum content, should support and accept your choice to begin moderating, in order to protect your name and community. There must be compromise and understanding..and Ron needs to go find a tea bagger forum to dump on and keep his posts about climbing...there's a time and place for that, a much better time and place...so go take advantage of those forums ron and try to understand what your doing to this entire community...
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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So, Ron Anderson (rdog) is hurting your business? The choice(s) seem pretty clear.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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It seems like what you are really asking is, what should you do, or what would WE do, under these circumstances.
What I would do, if I owned the site: I personally do not enjoy and avoid/ignore threads about politics, religion, and women's body parts. If I OWNED this site, I would have a moratorium on those threads and it wouldn't bother ME if people left in droves because my policy made the Forum "boring" to them. And it wouldn't bother ME if the Forum made less money because those changes. But I have NEVER complained to you about these things because YOU OWN IT, and I presume the Forum operates exactly the way you want it to.
As to what YOU should do, that's your business. What kind of Forum do YOU want? People have been complaining to you for years about over-posters, extreme nastiness between certain users, and too many politics/religion/tits&ass threads. Lots of good suggestions have been floated over the years, but have never been implemented.
Phyl, it doesn't surprise me that you would remain focused on the question CMac asked. Other than the person-to-person griping, most seem to say they want the forum remaining as it is but, as you correctly state, that's Chris's decision as an owner. I'll admit that as a father of daughters, an older brother of sisters, and a husband, I could do without threads focused on females as sex objects, but I think Chris has already dealt with that.
As a person interested in truth, though, I deplore the idea that we should combat ideas by preventing their expression. I remain shocked to learn what constitutes "hate speech." It seems as absurd as the inquiries to determine if a particular murder (definition of murder is an unlawful homocide with malice aforethought) constitutes a "hate crime."
After all, I am an (1)old (2)white (3)male (4) evangelical Christian (5) conservative (6) Republican (7) who climbs by the "first ascent principal" meaning that I (8) climb runout slab routes the way I find them and who (9) enjoys aid climbing and (10) enjoys sport climbing and (11) enjoys gym climbing. There have been threads and posts criticizing each of those 11 categories above (and doubtless more in which I would fit). Have I therefore suffered from "hate speech?" I don't think so. In fact, I suspect neither Crankster nor "Mark Winans" nor any other Coloradan with a personal ST vendetta thinks so.
I find the proper response to criticism of any of the groups to which I belong consists of argument, not censorship. In my opinion, anyone unable to silence an argument with logic has no "right" to silence it with censorship.
John
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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John, I enjoy your posts and respect your opinion - and I leave all climbs as I find them, also. But don't lump me in with Mark Winans. As I've stated, I don't advocate a boycott of a worthy site like ST, I just think one poster crosses the line into "hate speech" too many times. We can disagree on what constitutes hate speech. It happens infrequently here, but it should be obvious to you, I would hope. When you do, let loose with your logic.
squishy nailed it, by the way.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:28am PT
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Sorry crankster. My bad.
John
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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This is clearly an attempt by Jade Helm to discredit and slander Rdog. Ron simply knows too much. They can't afford to have him continue posting, and possibly bust the whole thing wide open.
Or maybe, it is a false flag campaign by Rdog. By making himself the victim, he'll cement his place on the Taco for eternity.
Sorry if this all was so obvious.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:53am PT
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hahahahahahahaha, ok that was funny...
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sDawg
climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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Chris, I have to push back. You've given just enough information to get the bulk of your users on your side, but haven't been completely transparent with us. Have you reached out to make 100% sure your complaint policies are painfully clear with Mark? Have you ensured him of the transparency of your followup to any complaint? Perhaps an offer to speak with him to review your policies and consider his feedback would even be appropriate. You'd be in the right to say he has some responsibility for seeking out direct complaint mechanisms before going over your head to advertisers. However if you want the moral high ground it's on you to make a concerted effort to ensure he has none available.
Of course I don't think capitulating to his demands is the right course, but your original post is not sufficient to convince me that effortful communication and deliberate de-escalation from your side can't work.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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I don't feel there is anything contrived, manipulative, or "fake" about Ron Anderson.
He is what he is, and he wears what he is proudly with no apologies.
Personally, not that he or anyone else care what I think, what he is makes me want to puke.
To me he is the caricature of the "Ugly American" so reviled across the globe.
I say let Ron Anderson continue to be Ron Anderson, he has already been "banned" and
it is obvious he wants to continue to post here because he talked his way back on.
Ron is careful, nowadays, that he does not directly attack anyone without them starting it.
What he cannot stop or even mitigate a little is what is his true nature...........
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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Interesting and informative articles, along with the "related articles" listed, k-man. Thanks for the reference. They put the dangers of personal attacks in a better perspective for me.
Trolls and "bullies" differ, though, in my mind. Frankly, I've read very little on Super Topo that comes close to what I would call "bullying," and what little I have, the moderators very quickly squelched.
Trolls, in contrast, simply generate controversy, which is their desired effect. Lord knows we've all thought the authors of some stuff we've read must be idiots, and told them so in exasperation, but if that's all it takes to make a "bully," then I think we overreact. As a concrete (and almost certainly a trolling [to some eyes here]) example, consider some of what Werner posts. If he calls us "stoopid," does anyone really believe that he thinks we're mentally deficient, worthless, despicable people, rather than just being playful in expressing his disagreement? In no way is Werner a "cyberbully" to my reading, and that's one reason, in addition to his body of work as a climber, why so many of us pay attention to all he posts.
I think Ron, LEB and several others,in contrast, have been subjected to a very great deal of what seems, to me, bullying behavior. The personal insults directed their way - often telling them they're awful people and need to go away - would cause an objective person to conclude that the posters hated them personally, not just the ideas they expressed.
What am I missing?
John
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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And they have a right to such a decision, to call them too stupid or PC to do business with when they are possibly making a sound business decision, for them, is sort of disingenuous...and dare I say, stupid...
They, of course, have the right to their own assessment of reality, as do you, and as do I. As you just said to me, "dare you," that my perspective is stupid, you must by definition think that it's possible to think another person's perspective is stupid. So, apparently we are simply disagreed about what stupid is.
Your idea that CMac is complicit in what he allows seems really thin to me, and, again, if advertisers want to pull their ads on something that thin, I'm happy to boycott them for what I believe really is an overly PC view of reality and a failure to GET the basic principle: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.
I think there's forums out there where such people can go post that stuff in freedom, a climbing forum is not and should not ackomidate them or feel forced to by peers or the community.
There is a reason why CMac has "been complicit" in allowing these forums to remain largely unmoderated, and it's a reasonable and consistent position that, I believe, includes a realization that a heavily moderated forum will soon go the way of rc.com and others. This is not a "climbing forum" in the sense you seem to believe. It is a forum of largely climbers who like to discuss a wide, wide range of topics. That is not the same as a "climbing forum."
If CMac wants to turn it into strictly a climbing forum, that is, of course, his right. Many will leave for the other forums you mention. Such is life. Big deal. Only CMac can decide the bang-for-the-buck himself. Who am I? But none of this touches my perspective that these finger-to-the-wind, PC-intensive perspectives are stupid and ultimately unsustainable.
Especially if you face such allegations and outside pressure. The rants and content by some posters here is distasteful, but I have no opinion on that, I enjoy the color, but if there's adverse effects then you must react to shore up the ship.
Maybe. Or maybe "shoring up the ship" is to simply and forthrightly respond to the advertisers about your "light moderation" policy and find others if some leave. There are MANY fish in the sea, and not all are stupid enough to take seriously the rant of a single letter. The forums by and large are NOT as the letter states, and it is easy enough to discover that fact with a tiny bit of digging. So, I have zero sympathy for the "sensibilities" of any advertiser that can't see the sense in CMac's past approach.
Again, it's his call and his alone. He asked for thoughts, and I've offered mine. You call my perspective "stupid," but I'm not the one apparently making decisions and having perspectives based on the THINNEST of "evidence."
Sure, fighting for free speech and the right for everyone here to be themselves and open is an honorable thing to fight for, I would do the same and have in the past. But I must say, when it effects your personal life and people truly get nasty, it's simply not worth it anymore.
That's your opinion, and I'll say flatly that I have no respect for it. I believe that talk of "honor" and doing the right thing is a bunch of armchair hooey until the moment that your stand DOES take you into deep waters, cost you personally, and get truly nasty. Only then do you (and others) know whether you have a genuine principled stand or just a comfortable preference.
It's pretty clear that we don't share some pretty core values, so I won't "debate" you further on this subject. It's CMac's call, and I'll support his decision. I've offered my thoughts, which is all any of us can do.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 01:50pm PT
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Radical!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 28, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
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This Marc Winans
My bad. I got it from Pete OB above.
It's no "witch hunt" to seek to contact the guy and try to get his overarching perspective, as well as see if there's any way to find some meeting of the minds.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 28, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
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It's amazing no ones mentioned, Capt. Obvious
You have, about 10 times now, lol!
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