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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Feb 26, 2018 - 07:02pm PT
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Maybe we could crowdfund a statue of Harding with a message in several languages--Tom
You might take that idea to Derryberry.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 26, 2018 - 08:26pm PT
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Will Yosemite pioneers be forgotten?
What about the larger, and much more important, question: Will climbing's pioneers be forgotten?
For Americans, particularly Californians, Yosemite _is_ climbing. But in the real world of climbing, Yosemite is just one little blip among many, and the OP question should be broadened to include all of climbing history.
Who here knows much about non-California climbers? Yeah, okay, there are a few of us, but this site is seriously California-centric, and California is hardly the world epicenter of climbing.
Case in point: Allen Steck just sent me (via Steve Grossman) a copy of his recently-published memoir, "A Mountaineer's Life." You all know about Allen, right? Pioneer Yosemite climber. East Buttress of El Cap. Steck-Salathe on Sentinel. But do you have any clue that these were the least of his climbing achievements?
Do any of you know who Bill Murray was? Voytek Kurtika? Mick Fowler?
California climbing will live on forever in a million web pages, books, and videos. The real question is whether the rest of climbing history, the _real_ climbing history, will live on or be forgotten.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 26, 2018 - 11:38pm PT
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Mostly older guys who get interested in climbing history. The bug didn't bite me until I turned 62. Then I started working on my website and delving into aspects of that history. But, I suspect many of the older guys on this site (with some exceptions) know very little about the history of our sport, beyond California, the Gunks, and a few other areas, and really don't care.
Think of all the young people who flock to the climbing gyms and perhaps never really commit to the outdoors. When they become old some of them will become interested in climbing history. The history of climbing gyms and international competitions.
Oliver Perry Smith, the finest American rock climber of the Edwardian age: Wikipedia page hits = 2 per day. Georg Winkler, young solo climber = 3 per day. Paul Preuss = 22 per day.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 27, 2018 - 03:19am PT
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Whatever the activity, we all stand on the shoulders of those who preceded us. As a young climber I was inspired by books written by Bonatti, Buhl and Gervasutti. As an older climber I sometimes feel like a pivot point between those climbers whose path I followed and today’s young climbers who are taking climbing to levels thought impossible a few years ago.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Feb 27, 2018 - 08:51am PT
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I do think a big part of the knowledge gap is due to modern tech, although, as mentioned, lots of folks have never cared about history. When I started climbing, there was only one way to learn about it--a few mags and BOOKS. So I checked them out, got my parents to buy whatever they could find, and I read and re-read them, immersing myself in both European and American stories. I beat the hell out of Climbing in North America by Chris Jones and was quite star-struck as a lad to meet him at a couple of AAC meetings. Great guy! But I read Bonatti, Cassin (got to meet him, too), Gervasutti, Brown, Rebuffat (of course), Herzog (duh), and more. I loved the crap out of Climb! about Colorado climbing where I was first introduced to my heroes of Jim Erikson, Steve Wunsch, and Layton Freakin' Kor! Monsters all. And it wasn't just history. The point, really, was stories. Great stories about the sport that has guided much of my life. Reading these, too, gave me a sense of humility and perspective, which we all need.
My current read is history: Peter the Great by Robert Massie. Won the Pulitzer in 1980. Great read!
Gotta get that book about Valley climbing in the 50's. Sounds wonderful.
BAd
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Feb 27, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
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Read Spencer's Mutability Canto in the Faerie Queen:
All is dust!
What I've noticed though is that kids who start in gyms and then go out and boulder and climb in traditional areas have a deep knowledge of who did what and when BITD. They also know about who's doing the modern test pieces. Of course, for every 500 people who go to gyms, there's only a handful who leave the incubator nest and move out into the field. But when they do, they seem to have a knowledge of test pieces and the history surrounding them. They even develop their own rock philosophy based on doing.
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RussianBot
climber
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Feb 27, 2018 - 01:18pm PT
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I’m not convinced it’s a function of how many people are engaged in the activity. Probably almost every single one of us is a speller, but I’d be surprised if we knew the history of our heroes who faced down the stress and the danger of humiliation to spell that last word correctly and win the National spelling bee!
We’re interested in what we’re interested in, and we want other people to be interested in it too. The interesting question to me is why? Why do we care whether other people are interested in / glorify the things that we’re interested in?
The stuff we (or others) are not interested in ... it’s not a question of whether that stuff will be forgotten - we were never interested enough to learn about it in the first place. Maybe it’s the same for other people and climbing, even other climbers who just aren’t interested in the history of climbing.
And why should they be? They’re gonna answer that one for themselves, just like we do. I wonder why we answer it the way we do? I don’t know jack about our spelling bee heroes.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Feb 27, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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I enjoyed Chris Jones' book on climbing in North America when it came out.
It would be great to see someone take this format/concept from 1975 to the present
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 27, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
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Marlowe started a thread in 2015 about Walter Parry Haskett Smith, arguably the father of Anglo rock climbing as a sport (1880s). Using my simplistic metric of Wiki page visits, he has about 4 per day, and so is relatively forgotten - though not entirely of course. Another star performer and pioneer was Owen Glynne Jones, who during the 1890s became Britain's first "tiger." His page hits are about 3 per day.
How many boulderers these days can identify Oscar Eckenstein, arguably the father of Anglo bouldering (1880s)? Well, I was pleasantly surprised to see that his Wiki page gets 22 or so hits per day. Not completely forgotten. But Pierre Allain, who championed the activity in the 1930s and 1940s has only 7 or so visits per day.
It's one thing to know something of the generation preceding your own, and another to go back several generations. But, really, who cares? I bet if you asked an up and coming young gymnast about the stars of the 1936 Olympic games, he wouldn't have a clue - and why should he? But he would certainly know the recent champions of the sport.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Feb 27, 2018 - 03:31pm PT
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One of the great things about time is that it separates those whose deeds were worth remembering from those whose deeds were not.
So much of our history is written by and centers around the exploits of those who had the time to document it, not necessarily those who did amazing things.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 27, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
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If you are young and fervently pursuing the athlectic aspects of climbing it’s history may hold little interest for you. If climbing becomes the abiding passion of a lifetime, delving into it’s short but fascinating history will enrich your journey.
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wayne burleson
climber
Amherst, MA
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Mar 21, 2018 - 02:08pm PT
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I think the availability of vast amounts of fresh and glossy information on the internet is mostly responsible for the lack of interest in more traditional media including books and magazines.
We see the same in engineering. Students know who Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are, but don't know or care about Shannon, Fourier, or Maxwell...
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Mar 21, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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They've forgotten Fourier's theorem for sampling, quantizing and encoding?
Shame on them!
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Mar 22, 2018 - 02:54pm PT
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first, who is Paul Preuss? (yes I'm serious, but no, I don't need an answer)
second, I've been finding that climbing history is in a revival stage. Maybe it's just because I have been necessarily immersed in it myself for the last several years, but I believe there IS interest overall by new climbers.
third, Yvon's recent words come to mind, "If the russians attacked this building right now the entire history of climbing would be erased" - so cheers to no Russians blowing up Modesto last week ;)
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Mar 22, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
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Thank you Brian! ;)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 22, 2018 - 04:01pm PT
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Who has read "Where Clouds Can Go" by Konrad Cain?
Paul Preuss died soloing and therefore is unimportant to me. If you die climbing then you have failed the game, insulted the community and hurt anyone that you loved. Only climbers who survive climbing are important. In My Cranky Opinion.
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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Mar 22, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
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Not if you internalize what Dad wrote (see my post in the Yosemite Pioneers being forgotten thread)....
And, how are you/we to be the judges of whether a climber CHOSE to or happened to die?
Also, (as an example, not taking anything personally...) are you saying that if Dad had died climbing, his significance in the sport and the world would have been completely altered?
While completely understanding and respecting your admission of being cranky, the post simply begged to be questioned ;)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 22, 2018 - 04:26pm PT
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[quote]
Also, (as an example, not taking anything personally...) are you saying that if Dad had died climbing, his significance in the sport and the world would have been completely altered[/quote
Do you need me to answer that? Yes. His life and his career would have been completely altered. Wouldn't your life have been altered completely?
That's why Ricardo Cassin and your dad are worthy legends and guys like Paul Preuss, Hersey, Potter are just cautionary footnotes.
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