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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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blahblah
But no, the US is nowhere close to having "among the highest homicide rate" in the world, much less the highest. So Lollie overstated her case and you are factually correct. I believe Venezuela is way ahead of us. Not to mention Somalia, Central African Republic and South Sudan.
Let's just back off a moment and let the relative levels of firearm murder rate among developed countries sink in
We have 4 X the gun related murder rate of Turkey and Switzerland. Sure, plenty of really bad countries have been left out including Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Brazil.
How about Switzerland and even Israel where there's nearly universal male conscription and soldiers take their weapons home on leave and may retain them after discharge from the army? Now THERE are countries with a Well Regulated Militia.
Where are Lollie's Sweden and Brevik's Norway? Bruce Kay's Canada? Bulgaria? They don't come close to us.
Yeah Chile is pretty close to us.
These countries on the chart still have the death penalty
Chile but they haven't executed anyone since 1985
Israel: last execution in 1962
Japan: last in 2013
South Korea: last in 1997
The only country in Europe that still has the death penalty is Belarus. (not on the chart)
Not even Russia has the death penalty since 2009. (not on the chart)
We're still #1!!!
Doesn't look like the Death Penalty is required to have a safe and sane society. Doesn't look as if it's even doing the US any good.
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Funny graph. How many Crips, Bloods or MS13 live in Switzerland?
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Switzerland is a Socialist Democracy. Everyone has opportunity so they don't need gangs to protect disenfranchised, oppressed minority youth.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Another way say what Madbolter is getting at--
the US isn't exactly in the "developed world."
Remember disgraced Democratic VP candidate John Edwards' "Two Americas" speeches? He was right.
Part of US is a more-or-less developed country that has murder rates similar to other developed countries (albeit still somewhat higher);
part of US is more similar to dangerous Latin America / African countries that have much higher murder rates.
Put 'em together and you see reality--US murder rate is significantly higher than developed countries and lower than dangerous 3rd world countries.
How to get more of the US out of the third world situation into a developed situation is a challenge.
Lollie did not just overstate her case--as far as I can understand from her posts, she fundamentally does not understand that the US that most (probably not all) of us ST posters inhabit has a murder rate not so different from her beloved Sweden.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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How to get more of the US out of the third world situation into a developed situation is a challenge. agreed.
the US....has a murder rate not so different from her beloved Sweden. That's a peculiar way to interpret the data.
How many Crips, Bloods or MS13 live in Switzerland? I'm so sheltered I don't know who MS13 is. I presume not a "militia" group.
Back to the question? All those armed Swiss citizen soldiers shoot 'em I guess.
They've got plenty of wetbacks from Eastern Europe, the Balkans and Italy. Just like us, they love to exploit the cheap labor and deny the rights of citizenship.
Not to mention mafia and banks that shelter drug and gun running money.
There are violent gangs, Neo Nazis, skinheads, "Muslims", "blacks" and armed criminals in Germany, France, England, Sweden, Norway etc. Strict gun control, low crime, low gun death and homicide rates. Go figure.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Sure, blahblah, you're absolutely right. It was "stunning ignorance". I was thinking of "Murders with firearms."
There's approximately 200 countries in the world and USA is # 4 on the list, I consider that pretty much "among the highest".
But... :-D
...demographics, huh? You are one country, are you not?
Numbers isn't my point though. My point is what kind of society one wants. With growing knowledge and civilisation we learned that children doesn't understand and do not learn better in school if beaten when they answer wrong. So we changed that.
Death penalty isn't a deterrent against violent crimes. There's innocents killed. It doesn't really fill any function from the standpoint of society. It does satisfy bloodthirst.
It's also simply uncivilised.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
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Drawn (not sketched) and quartered
Keelhauled
Bitch-slapped
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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It's also simply uncivilised. That's never going to win any minds. Unfortunately.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Death penalty isn't a deterrent against violent crimes
It doesn't really fill any function from the standpoint of society
The death penality is not a deterrent, it's meant to remove people from society who won't get along with others.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Is there death penalty regarding goods exchanged involving a blow job for profit ?
Only if teeth cause damages
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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That graph is bogus cause it doesn't show the firearm deaths caused by Germany and Japan.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Re deterrence, there are two types, specific and general. Specific deters just the ceiminal being punished. That is very effective. General deterrence is supposed to be the broader impact as a result of the individual's punsihment.
I used to oppose the death penalty without exception. Now I oppose it because of concerns of the potential innocence of the incarcerated. But I've become hardened as I've aged and in instances were guilt in not in doubt, it bothers me far less. Like this guy in Oklahoma. I felt conflicted until I heard why he was sentenced. Kidnapped a 19 year old girl, raped her and then buried her alive. I think he got off easy.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2014 - 12:20am PT
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If my thought dreams could be seen:
Not too long ago, I received word that the information I received regarding the guillotines was not only accurate, it was actually being lobbied in Washington DC to get them legalized for governmental use! The states I mentioned on my "current events" page a few years back was in fact GEORGIA & MONTANA as the recipients of these guillotines. The information I had received was that 15, 000 or 30,000 guillotines had been shipped to Georgia as well as Montana for safe keeping until such a time as they are needed. (I don't recall the exact number. It's been a while. However, I do believe it was 15,000 guillotines for each storage facility.)
http://www.remnantofgod.org/guillotines.htm
Georgia House of Representatives - 1995/1996 Sessions
HB 1274 - Death penalty; guillotine provisions
Code Sections - 17-10-38/ 17-10-44
A BILL TO BE ENTITLED AN ACT
1- 1 To amend Article 2 of Chapter 10 of Title 17 of the Official
1- 2 Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to the death penalty
1- 3 generally, so as to provide a statement of legislative
1- 4 policy; to provide for death by guillotine; to provide for
1- 5 applicability; to repeal conflicting laws; and for other
1- 6 purposes.
SECTION 1.
1- 8 The General Assembly finds that while prisoners condemned to
1- 9 death may wish to donate one or more of their organs for
1-10 transplant, any such desire is thwarted by the fact that
1-11 electrocution makes all such organs unsuitable for
1-12 transplant. The intent of the General Assembly in enacting
1-13 this legislation is to provide for a method of execution
1-14 which is compatible with the donation of organs by a
1-15 condemned prisoner.
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jstan
climber
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On the guillotine:
A method that requires both action by only one executioner and that results in dismemberment is going to be hard on executioners and observers. When it used to be done the body had to be flipped quickly into a coffin so the inevitable spasms would not be seen. That also is hard. As a young kid assisting butchering I learned death by gunshot to the brain often involves extended violent spasms. What we see portrayed in the media is heavily edited foolishness.
While hanging often resulted in strangulation, if there was sufficient damage to vertebra C3-C5 the diaphragm and other muscles were paralyzed and visible struggling lessened. Blockage of the carotid artery could produce death in minutes, it is reported.
If we are to disentangle ourselves from vengeance we need to ask if we ourselves could carry out a procedure on persons about whom we know nothing.
This is a very hard business that must be approached with integrity.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Fat Dad, my initial reaction to reading "buried her alive" is "bury "HIM alive". But then I wonder, where do these monsters come from?
Hideous crimes happens everywhere, but the amount and how often they happen differ greatly - and the aftermath differs. Do we want us to be on the same level as the scum and dregs?
If the goal is: protection from criminals, our children to be safe, ourselves to be safe, our property being safe, is death penalty making that goal come true? No.
I think jstan has an interesting point. What does killing do to those who has to administer it?
In the old days, the hangman was the lowest of the lowest and looked down upon.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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here's what some murder victim family members had to say in a WA state hearing in 2012:
Karil Klingbeil, whose sister Candy Hemming was murdered by Mitchell Rupe in 1981, said her attitudes about the death penalty have come full circle after experiencing the harm that a prolonged capital case had on her and her family. “Had Rupe received life without parole after the first trial, my family would have been spared 20 years of additional suffering. We would have been able to honor Candy’s memory and begin the healing process.” Klingbeil says that she now supports lifetime incarceration as the most severe punishment for murder.
Aqeela Sherrils, whose Terrell son was killed in a random shooting in 2004, is board member of a national organization of victims’ families working to end the death penalty. He explained the different reasons that family members oppose the death penalty: “Some family members were supporters of capital punishment, until they had to endure the pain and suffering associated with a long, drawn-out death penalty case. Now they feel that greater attention should be focused on the needs of victims and helping them heal. Others have been denied justice altogether: No one has ever been prosecuted for the murder of their loved one. They see resources that could be spent investigating unsolved crimes wasted on death penalty cases instead.”
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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As noted above, the problem with capital punishment is is not the act itself but, the unnecessarily long process.
Defendants that plead guilty or have irrefutable evidence against them could be executed the day after the trial. This would save victims families the decades of prolonged litigation and suffering as well as negate the great cost incurred by our current system.
Those that argue of the "great karmic consequence" of killing another forget
that defending the child torturer/murderer carries with it it's own karmic consequence.
When we rid the world of those that would rape, torture, maim and kill innocents, we make it a better place to be.
As far as those quoting scripture as a means to an answer well...
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2014 - 11:20am PT
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A method that requires both action by only one executioner and that results in dismemberment is going to be hard on executioners and observers
Well, most of the time I'm not in favor of killing anyone by any method, though I vacillate. An interesting issue, however, is when someone who is convicted of a heinous offense, says to go ahead and take his/her life.
To advocate briefly for the devil, folks shouldn't have to watch killings and the release mechanism could be set up so that any of say four folks could actually trigger it, which I guess then puts the minimal number of observers at four.
In any event jstan's obsevation about what they did with the bodies is true and correct.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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Self defense I would say is humane and good.
How much are those nuclear bullets that are so good at also catching the victim on fire? Wouldn't have to have one of those boxes or baskets to stash the body in.
Finally, if the Interstate Commerce Commision would allow it, could all the convicts in line for dispatchment be brought to your place and you would handle it all? Would you have any trouble sleeping?
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