BLM shoot and kill a man in Red Rocks (with witness video)

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 141 - 160 of total 230 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 23, 2014 - 01:51pm PT

I still say there isn't enough info, but obviously there is enough for many to rush to judgement.

A sad way to end one's life any way you slice it.

People are gonna play Coulda Woulda Shoulda with this for years.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Feb 23, 2014 - 01:53pm PT

This whole discourse is making me sound like a bleeding heart liberal---which I'm not! My BIG concern is the escalation of violence BY our LEOs who are supposed to "Protect and Serve." They. Aren't.

Braunini

Big Wall climber

cupertino

Feb 23, 2014 - 01:55pm PT

exhausted the non lethal options is a strong statement

[Click to View YouTube Video]

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:14pm PT

Hey Ron, you being voluntarily tased explains a lot.

John M

climber

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:22pm PT

you can't give a beanbag gun to every cop out there. Its just not logistically practical.

I still have a problem with the way the highway patrolman drove up on the guy. I don't believe that I would have handled it that way. But hindsight is 2020. This wasn't like a suspect potentially escaping in a vehicle. He was on foot. So why park so close and put your vehicle into the mix?

Braunini

Big Wall climber

cupertino

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:24pm PT

You absolutely can. It's not a special gun, it's a beanbag round for a stock 12 gauge.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:24pm PT

Of course, now we know that when there are witness statements that contradict the story that the police give on what happened prior to a shooting, we now have to factor in the CERTAINTY that if the cops think that a person should be executed, that they consider it their job to make that judgement, and carry out the execution ASAP.

Sometimes that means effing up a witnesses life, too. But that is "collateral damage"---javascript:doSave();-to save them, we had to kill them.

Maybe the perp WASN'T in the running, armed police car, but placed there?

Maybe he was tased and pepper sprayed AFTER he was shot?

Opens up all sorts of possibilities......

John M

climber

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:26pm PT

You absolutely can. It's not a special gun, it's a beanbag round for a stock 12 gauge.

oops.. didn't know that. thanks for the heads up.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:32pm PT

Reno Narcotics officer found dead in a ditch

Four yr old girls body discovered in a drain pipe along the road

Near dead homosexual found beaten severly at summit one

So you start to think about people who are oriented and trained in violence, and think about it every day. Who think that they are the reasonable decider of death. Who typically are conservative to the extreme, and need to protect their community from deviants........

And you start to wonder where the police were actually located the day of those crimes.........

franky

Trad climber

Bishop, CA

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:34pm PT

What makes you think bean bags are going to work if a taser, pepper spray, and baton didn't? He was unresponsive to pain. Officers don't carry bean bags rounds because tasers, pepper spray, and batons work better. Policy specifically excludes shooting at anything other than center of mass with a firearm. Firearms are used only when deadly force is the intention.

Every alternative proposed so far in this thread either relies on technology that doesn't exist, non deadly methods that are less effective than the ones employed, the suspect being rational which he clearly wasn't, unsafe actions that directly violate well considered and reasonable policy, or time that the officers didn't have.

John M

climber

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT

or time that the officers didn't have.

which was why I was bringing up the whole vehicle thing. If the guy didn't get access to that vehicle, then they might have had more time.

and I am not trying to blame the cop. If that was his training, then its a training issue. I am also not saying it was absolutely wrong. I'm trying to discuss it so that I can understand.

Would a bing bag round have knocked him down so that they had more time? Even if he was oblivious to the pain. On the ground seems like a good thing.

Braunini

Big Wall climber

cupertino

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT

lol OK dude

clearly you and ron are the only guys on the whole internet who have any experience in this area

preach on

franky

Trad climber

Bishop, CA

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:47pm PT

You can hit harder with a baton than you can with a bean bag round. I'm inclined to think if he was unaffected by the baton bean bags would not have done the trick. Maybe the extra distance they allow would have helped. Regardless, they aren't standard issue because the other intermediate defensive tools used are more effective.

Again, maybe they could have had more time if they approached the situation differently, but they acted reasonably and they don't have the benefit of unlimited time and hindsight. Given the totality of the circumstances, they acted appropriately. Rerun that scenario with 100 different cops and I bet the outcome is the same the vast majority of the time.

Braunini

Big Wall climber

cupertino

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:50pm PT

which is a problem

franky

Trad climber

Bishop, CA

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:51pm PT

Think about it braunini, force is the same on both ends of a shotgun, does the kick of a 12 gauge knock over a large adult male? Bean bag rounds rely on pain, there isn't enough force to physically disable an adult man who has no response to pain.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:55pm PT

Disingenuous, franky, the mass of the shotgun absorbs the energy slowing down the "kick" compared to the bag.

Braunini

Big Wall climber

cupertino

Feb 23, 2014 - 02:58pm PT

franky and ron -

you are still assuming that you two are the only ones having the background to have an opinion here

my experience with bean bag rounds leads me to strongly disagree with you and i will leave it at that

franky

Trad climber

Bishop, CA

Feb 23, 2014 - 03:05pm PT

we don't need to open up a physics debate too. The momentum of the gun and bullet will be equal and opposite. The bullet will have more kinetic energy than the gun, but that will not make it significantly better at knocking a person over than the kick of the shotgun. (Because momentum must also be conserved when the bullet strikes it's target, despite the bullet having lots of kinetic energy)

Edit... Tossed in the parenthesis just to clear up the point I was making a bit

Braunini

Big Wall climber

cupertino

Feb 23, 2014 - 03:08pm PT

Well, it kind of is a physics debate if you want people to take you seriously.

While you are thinking about how to answer that, since you are probably a cop, see if you can identify where your use of force continuum model failed in this particular scenario and form your response around that.