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Hilt
Social climber
Utah
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Mar 20, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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Seeing a mother high on drugs lose it while the daughter was trying to help and getting beat up for it. I was just a kid, had no idea what to do beyond run home and tell my Dad. He went over there and I never did find out what he did about it. All I know is I avoided that family for the rest of that summer and then they moved away to everyone's relief.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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Oh gawd, that jolted my memory, one I thought i'd successfully repressed decades ago; On the way to Yosemite, we stopped somewhere in the bad part of town in a Western Oil Boomtown (not Gillette) so one of my ride share associates could get some money owed him.
He got the money, but not until after we all witnessed a young woman, replete in stained wifebeater and long stringy, dirty blonde hair, shooting up speed through a spike, on a couch in the next room. We couldn't get out of there fast enough!
The really disturbing part came a couple hundred miles later when one of my co-riders offered a fact I didn't know.....
"That was really gross, for a nursing mother to be doing that."
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Mar 20, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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Hey Jaybro-Sounds like you were witness to a bad scene. You want to help, yet don't want to cross the line. It's hard to know if someone needs/wants help with that type of scenario. There's the timing of it all, and sometimes when you realize you should interject, the timing for it has past. It sounds like a bad situation.
Charming and manipulative people are very scary to be around, and they f*#k with your head big time! I have heard that a big sign of a sociopath is their tendency to "play the victim". They will have these very sad stories, everyone treats them so bad, yet they are really just crying crocodile tears. They have an uncanny ability to read you and what your weaknesses are, and play into that with ease. They charm you with what speaks to you on a deep level so you feel like you met someone very unique who sees the world similarly as you do, and you have rarely found someone who feels the way you do. The ability to say these things and somehow innately know what to say to hook you in is amazing. Then comes the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde, and you are stunned. The manipulation comes with a lot of hypocrisy. A lot of sin of omission, a lot of double standards. And you definitely think no one is going to believe you about these things. These things can be so subtle and covert, that it is often hard to even describe/explain to someone. Anyone in a situation like that should get out as quickly as possible, no good will come of it, and you'll be left feeling very low. Also, I think it is good to remember that there are many friends and family, people who knew you for many years before you met this person, they know you/have known you and will be there for you. Not everyone will be fooled by this controlling manipulator "wolf in sheeps clothing"-and those who are may be weak minded anyway. People will be there for you-there are a lot of emotionally in-tune people who can get a sense of a sociopath or manipulator narcissist-so anyone trying to get out needs to know that.
Here are words I found on a website "tearsandhealing" that explain what I'm trying to say a lot better:
So what is a sociopath? A serial killer that strolls from one victim to another? Possibly, but not often. Ask yourself this: is your partner unable to form any kind of emotional bond with another person? Does he or she seem to be always without empathy for others, even their own family? Does he or she do things that to you seem beyond comprehension; and then carry on as if those actions made no difference? Is he or she in trouble with the law and other authorities? Does he or she like dangerous, outrageous or socially/sexually unacceptable activities that provide a thrill? If you see this dynamic in your partner, family member, coworker, or friend, you are very probably dealing with a sociopath.
If that isn't bad enough, most people who show sociopathic behavior aren't just sociopathic. They often also have narcissistic tendencies, sometimes intensely angered by anything that seems to suggest that he or she might have a flaw. In this mode, they will do anything, including brutalizing their own family, to maintain their own feeling that others see them as without any flaws. The combination is terribly painful to live with.
...And especially these words:
They Spin our Reality: Disordered people can't deal with the reality of their behaviors. On some level they realize how hurtful they are, yet accepting this major flaw in themselves is just too painful. So disordered abusers spin our reality to make theirs less painful. One of the most common defense mechanism they use is projection. In projection, a characteristic of themselves that they find just too painful to accept is projected onto us. And the most frequently projected characteristic is mental illness. "I'm not a sociopath. You're the crazy one." Another common and difficult defense mechanism is blame shifting. It's your fault this happened because blah, blah blah blah...
After a while it becomes hard to distinguish what is real from what is being projected and what is being distorted. We begin to doubt our reality and question whether we're the crazy ones, or whether our disordered SO's (significant others) are really right about what they say.
The truth is, THEY'RE NOT RIGHT. But they feel better when they can get us to carry the burden of their illness and their behavior.
What's more, disorder people hide their problems very effectively. People with all of these personality disorders - narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, and antisocial personality disorder - have serious maladjustments in coping with life. Thus, they live in emotional turmoil. They seek to present a very together appearance, hiding their disease from most people. It is only when we get into a close and private relationship with someone with these personality disorders that the abusive behavior comes out. And because their lives are wracked with emotional turmoil, there is a lot of pent-up emotion that can be focused on us. Yet those around us don't see it, causing us further confusion.
-sorry for the length of this post, but it is helpful to post someone else's words who describes more clearly what I'm trying to say. And just to repeat, get out if any of the above sounds familiar to your experience. And if you got out-give your friends a huge hug for being there for you while you pick up the pieces. They WILL be there for you.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mar 20, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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Yeah I know you think it's righteous for us to have the biggest prison population on the planet.
7 million people. 59% for drug offenses.
"The United States has 5 percent of the world's population and 25 percent of the world's incarcerated population. We rank first in the world in locking up our fellow citizens," said Ethan Nadelmann of the Drug Policy Alliance, which supports alternatives in the war on drugs.
"We now imprison more people for drug law violations than all of western Europe, with a much larger population, incarcerates for all offences."
Look at these evil totalitarian regimes.
The International Center for Prison Studies at King's College, London reported that this number was the highest of any country, with China ranking second with 1.5 million prisoners, and Russia sitting in third with 870,000.
Fattrad loves it.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 20, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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So what is a sociopath? Someone who rock climbs?
It's a grey scale, and everyone is somewhere on it. There is no "ill" vs "not ill".
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Mar 20, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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I disagree, JLP, for the most part (I do understand what your trying to convey, that too exists, but so do people with zero empathy). It seems you must be lucky and have never experienced the damage and havoc that one of these psychologically marred people can wreak upon someone elses life. And I'm glad that's the case for you. And for that you have the luxury to claim sociopaths don't exist and it's all shades of grey.
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wildone
climber
EP
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Mar 20, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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Wait, are you blame shifting?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 20, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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And for that you have the luxury to claim sociopaths don't exist
That isn't what he said at all.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
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I think he more implied that He was the final authority on who is or isn't. Pretty presumptuous for an anonymous troll. Or does he have credentials to back up that view? Does anyone know him in the real world?
Thanks Gal!! That is exactly what i was getting at that IS the type and person in a nutshell! A better more telling description than a photograph would be.
And fatty, stop putting words in my mouth, I'm with survival on that one.
Hmmm, I wonder if the guy in the op used his mj card to fuller advantage he would go easier on women?
And thanks Jeremy & Stich, Jack Mileski, got it!
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Hilt
Social climber
Utah
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Mar 20, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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I agree, there are some people out there that are truly evil. Gray works for most but... I grew up with a socialpath. Trust me, he was always one without empathy or remorse and I have always viewed him as truly evil. I also won't blame his parents since they were very normal with two other well adjusted kids. He is one of the people who like those who are born without legs or arms, like those with mental disabilities... He was born without the ability to connect that normally prevents a person from doing evil. It is what it is. He is now serving life in prison and no one in this corner of the woods is surprised. We just wonder why it took so long.
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Mar 20, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
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And for that you have the luxury to claim sociopaths don't exist
That isn't what he said at all.
Well, he said there are only shades of grey, no "ill" or "not Ill", wouldn't a sociopath be under the umbrella of "ill"?
Maybe came on too strong in my second post...
I suppose what I want to know is do you think sociopaths exist?
Do you believe in psychology and it's terminology?
Do you think you can never label someone a sociopath? Just curious...
I feel like there is a sliding scale on the ability to empathise-and then there's a sociopath-no ability at all. I do think there are shades of grey as far as various people's traits, even on a various day... but yet they would always have a varying degree of empathy. I also think there are people that fall under psychological definitions.
Thoughts?
I could be wrong-maybe there is no "ill" and "not ill", but when I have the flu, I sure feel "ill"-so I would think that would be true emotionally as well.?.
And I just wouldn't want someone to stay in a damaging situation. That was the intent of my earlier post. I've seen manipulation upon others, it's not cool.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 21, 2012 - 12:27am PT
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when I have the flu, I sure feel "ill"-so I would think that would be true emotionally as well.?.
Well, your body can carry the flu virus and not be effected, or it can kill you - and plenty of in-between in my own experience.
Placing people in the DSM IV isn't a hard science, by any stretch. Shades of grey is my take, and more or less what I see in that book as well. You're welcome to your own interpretations.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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Besides the Sociopaths, abusers, stalkers and other miscreants that befoul life by peeing in the communal pool, I find tragic, climbing accidents caused by simple mistakes that anyone, might make particularly disturbing.
Two carry outs I've in which I've taken part illustrate this point.
The first accident happened at the Cookie.(Mctwisted was on this one too and maybe can correct details I fumble) A Climber had died climbing a route by Beverly's Tower, Aftershock(?). He was leapfrogging a pair of small friends. atone point, pretty far runout and presumably pumped, he hung on a piece and and took the the one behind him out t reuse later. You can probably guess what happened next. The cam he was on pulled. He fell, pitched over backward, smashed his atlas / axis on the wall and bled out. There was some technical reason, like not enough rope,or something to lower to the ground, that he was held against heavy, mossy lichens for some time. As he bled they became engorged with his blood.
By the time we got there he was being bagged up. But I got a good look, before the final zipper. He was someone I'd seen around, one of us, like any of us could have been in his place. That was disturbing.
Then a ranger (?)giving a report over the walkie talkie mentioned that the victim was wearing contacts. The disturbing part of that was imagining someone lifting up the eyelids of a still warm body to discern that.
About two years later I was back at the scene to do some cragging. I walked by the scene and felt the memories. When I looked up there was a bare spot in the otherwise heavily lichened wall where the blood had killed the lichen. That too, was disturbing.
I think that's why I've mostly avoided climbing at the Cookie for the last twenty odd years.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 21, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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Oh, you haven't lived until you've had to tell your best friend's wife that
he isn't coming home.
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NotIt
Trad climber
SF, CA
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Mar 21, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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Many come to mind, sadly. Here's one:
This being the forum that it is, I won't be surprised at all if one or more of you shared this experience with me, though likely without the same proximity.
For a few years I was a Tuesday/Thursday evening regular at Mission Cliffs San Francisco. One evening, I was climbing the main handcrack, and when near the top came upon a climber on a route just left of the crack who hadn't moved for a bit.
Since this guy wasn't moving, was too close to comfortably/politely just squeeze by, and I was lapping, I said (from a few feet away) something to the effect of "hey, do you mind if I climb through". He didn't say anything, and just turned his eyes to meet mine.
At that point, he said, "I don't have a rope".
Hm. A quick visual check revealed that his powers of perception were totally intact. This dude had managed to be about 40 feet off the deck (perhaps 30, I'll grant), and indeed had no tether, save the contact of his hands and feet. [edit: I heard later that there was a mis-tied figure 8 involved, and that he believed himself tied in when he left the deck]
So, me being all nice and securely tied in on toprope, looks at him and says: dude - there is a HUGE bucket right there (gesturing to a literally arm-threadable toroid feature within arm's reach), so....
And before I had the chance to say "grab it and I will bullhorn you", the dude just let go.
And I watched him fall,screaming, the full height from there to the floor. I'll never forget the sound of impact. I'll also never forget the sound this guy started making shortly after impact. Sadly for him, he did not pass GO and proceed directly in to shock, but apparently stopped off right around the part of life's gameboard where existential-level pain lives, and started screaming in a way that got MC so quiet you could hear a pin drop - were it not for the screaming, of course.
I heard the dude was surfing a year later. Incredible.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Mar 21, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
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now the dead folks had a lot more drama,
talk to somebody who was at Normandy sometime if you want a chill.
talked to a guy who jus came back from 4 tours behind a 50 caliber in irac and afghan,,
he was spaced, looked like he could snap, so i treat him mellow, dig?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
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I've never had to deliver that kind of news myself. I have been present when my ex wife, a family practice doctor, did. Those times were disturbing. Other times she reported and had to testify, in child abuse cases.
Once as a resident when she was moonlighting as a surgical assist. She woke me up in the night and just hugged me. It turned out that a woman our age in for routi e surgery had spontaneously died from the anasthetic.
I never tried to compare 'bad days' with her.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
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Mar 21, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
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I had a roomate who is very well known on the eastside and here amongst the 'bitd' folks and an expert skier. He came back to the apt. one evening after a day of skiing and was very upset. Evidently he had decided to ski Daves Run one afternoon after a fairly long spell without any snow. It was also early in the season and the cover was not yet that great. So you had icy conditions combined with the exposed rock field which meant it was not the place for begginer/intermediate skiers.
Two young brothers, one was 18 and his younger brother was about 14 had decided to ski the normally easy route down from the top(if you avoided the face of Daves). Evidently the 18 yr. old had persuaded his younger brother to accompany him to the top(his firsttime to the top)by convincing him he new an easy way down(the ridge of daves Run). Which is the case if it were not icy. Plus the rocks made it very dangerous. Well the kid fell and evidenly left a big chunk of his skull on the rocks.
My roommate, the first person at the scene, relayed the story to me about how he accompanied the 18 yrs. old down the mountain while the ski patrol raced ahead of them with the 14 yr old. With the 18 yr old asking him over and over about whether or not his brother was going to live or die and wishing that he hadn't talked him into going to the top, etc.! It was very hard for me to here second hand. And it clearly affected my roommate very deeply.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 21, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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I feel like there's a healing quality about this thread.
We keep disturbing events in a numb place that divides us. Bringing them back to awareness frees the part of us that needed to be unconscious or guarded.
May everybody have Peace
Karl
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