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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 14, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree.
Sounds reasonable to me. I don't agree but it still sounds reasonable.
Failing to understand someone else's point of view is the first step in a civil war. If you cannot see where they are coming from or why they think that stuff then you will fail to have any useful communications with them. You will also fail if you assume that you are right in a matter that has no physical proof to it and is only based on opinion.
Ignoring the stupid response of "That's the way it's always been done" or the response of "that's the way I like it", answer these questions:
* Why does a climb need to be dangerous?
* Why are bolts bad?
* Why are people with a different point of view always wrong if they are young or inexperienced regardless of their point of view?
I don't take their point of view. I just don't see it as being inherently wrong. It is certainly not traditional to grid bolts things but why are climbers, who should be rebels and dirtbags, so into tradition and so into following the rules set forth by a bunch of old guys that probably did things the old way because they had no choice.
Open your minds or be run out of town by a bunch of youngin's.
Dave
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree.
Sounds reasonable to me. I don't agree but it still sounds reasonable.
Failing to understand someone else's point of view is the first step in a civil war. If you cannot see where they are coming from or why they think that stuff then you will fail to have any useful communications with them. You will also fail if you assume that you are right in a matter that has no physical proof to it and is only based on opinion.
Ignoring the stupid response of "That's the way it's always been done" or the response of "that's the way I like it", answer these questions:
* Why does a climb need to be dangerous?
* Why are bolts bad?
* Why are people with a different point of view always wrong if they are young or inexperienced regardless of their point of view?
I don't take their point of view. I just don't see it as being inherently wrong. It is certainly not traditional to grid bolts things but why are climbers, who should be rebels and dirtbags, so into tradition and so into following the rules set forth by a bunch of old guys that probably did things the old way because they had no choice.
Open your minds or be run out of town by a bunch of youngin's.
Dave
I don't hear "a bunch of old guys" saying there is no reason or purpose for sport climbing. But the converse is also true because climbing does have a history, and only in the last twenty years has the "no risk" mindset been an option.
The answers to your questions are are amply provided not by "opinion," as though climbing ethics are merely ephemeral, subjective whims, rather by the traditions of rock climbing reaching back for over 100 years. These were influenced by the deep ecology movement and athletics, which never held out the promise that you could get something for nothing.
People can surely rewrite climbing traditions but they cannot negate the right of traditional climbs and climbing areas to exist in the first instance. So while the "youngin's" have a right to do as they please, they have no right to reengineer existing routes in order to curry the favor of manifest chickenshits who believe that only duffers are daft enough to brook risk, commitment and a sporting ethic for climbing.
JL
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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JL-
Unfortunately the Nanny State mentality is now encroaching into our realm.
"Risk is bad, risk is...DANGEROUS!" Would a climb such as Stichter Quits still be the "same climb, only safer" with 3-4 more bolts added? I say no!
The risk is part of the reward.
One of my best memories of Joshua Tree climbing was a lead of Lickety Splits; it would be forever ruined with the addition of ONE bolt.
Just another one of my rants...
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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Bad example, Stichter Quits is a very safe climb. There's a bolt at each crux move, the runouts are pretty easy.
And this is coming from a wimpy Josh 5.7 leader!
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
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Right on Largo. Well said.
It's sort of interesting that in the early days of sport climbing, when the tables were sort of the opposite of what they are now, the rap bolting crowd used the argument "why can't we all coexist?" and "we can have both types of areas". It seems incredibly ironic that 25 years later, the "trad" crowd is now trying to use the same argument with increasingly little success.
What is "dangerous" is often in the eye of the beholder as well. There is no concrete definition and most of it ain't like porn, where you'll "know it when you see it."
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
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Sphincter Quits? Nah....there's a bomber #3 micro nut available at the crux. Perfectly safe...just make sure you have that damned #3 micro nut.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Mar 14, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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...they have no right to reengineer existing routes...
Except that this is just what is going on, in some cases.
On another note, we had a section of the Mohonk Preserve closed to climbing(bouldering) last year because some people did not care enough about the natural setting to act accordingly.
From what I understand(and I may not be fully accurate, so if someone who knows better corrects my words, I will stand corrected), this was an are that was off-the-map to most people, and a very old-growth, delicate moss-filled rocky area. Bouldering, not 5th class. Some people discovered the place and decided to develop bouldering problems.
Problems certainly did develop, because the cleaning went so far as to remove massive amounts of the moss to the point where the boulders were pretty much cleaned completely.
They wanted to have their lines, and f*#k'em if the moss was picturesque, and ecologically sensitive. Did not go to the preserve and ask about the area, but cleaned and climbed, and the damage was done until it came to the awareness of land managers. Too late of course - Moss ain't like sod that can be laid in place and grown into a lush carpet with care.
I have done one day of trail work with some of the people who likely were in on that, when the Rosendale Water Works area was being readied for access. We were there to do basic trail work, but of course it was expected people would climb a little. One guy was directed to "go up and clean the top-out" on a boulder they wanted to try some lines on. The person asked to borrow my work gloves, and proceeded to trash them as he completely bared the top of bramble that had built up over the years. Not just enough to top out from the line he'd done - but bared the entire top.
It did not even come under consideration that maybe that was not the way to go. Of COURSE it was the way to go, in their minds.
The young ARE the up and coming. But I think it is really important for the industry leaders(YES, the companies - I'll say why later) to recognize and promote by sponsorship a selection of those climbers/boulderers who understand impact and minimize it on places they develop. And that those sponsored athletes should be using part of their media exposure to educate and promote minimal impact ethics.
The "sport" HAS changed. For one thing - and "hot climbers" do not earn their stripes by doing, as was the way in the past. They are coming out of gyms, getting sponsorships and then being told to go get it outside. After all - can you imagine anyone over 16 being a sponsored GYM boulderer? Climbing magazine filled with images of people clipping 5.14 GYM routes?
As well, the internet has allowed regional climbers to gain exposure via discussion/image boards, blogs and videos. Go on You Tube and look at the top "sick climbing/bouldering videos" and see how much content about being aware of the environment is involved.
There may be some beautiful scenic imagery shot from the creative videographer, but you don't hear the climbers discussing minimal impact in any way.
Is there any top climber/boulderer who takes a position publicly on impact issues? Why are the companies who sponsor these people not asking for at least a modicum of "leave no trace" ethic?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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Style and tradition, old and young, n00b or vet, it still comes down to being responsible with a critical resource.
At what point does one's "safety" or conveince outweigh the impact on the environment? This is a point that is not easily identified, but needs to constantly examined and discussed.
People have different comfort levels with risk. If bringing a route to your comfort level is chosen over developing the skills to climb it, and establishing that level of comfort damages the environment a line has been crossed.
Maybe there are places where that is acceptable, but not JT.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 14, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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Point taken. The last time I climbed Stichter Quits, it was still Black Tide. However recent posts over on Mountain Project are claiming it's a 5.8+, PG 13 these days, and our own Dee ee suggested a 5.9 rating. There is a possible nasty ankle and leg breaking fall before reaching the first bolt.
Oh woe is me! That's the claim of "modern climbers!" We don't wanna' get hurt! But to quote Locker...
Yer
Gonna
Die!
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Mar 14, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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Safety lies between one's ears.
TY
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jstan
climber
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Mar 14, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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ssooo anyone got a pic of Bernadette???
Bernadette stayed at or near C4 site 30 on a couple of Facelifts so I have some observations to offer.
What we have is a very large, and serious, bureaucracy( the NPS) interacting with climbers, a group determined not to be classified as a group. An existentialist drama if ever there was one.
Bernadette, a very lovely young lady, is very serious, She is always working. She is going to do good things. Of that there can be no doubt. Possibly she is very unlucky to be located at the point where climbers intersect with the NPS.
But we, are very lucky that she is where she is.
We need to draw a distinction between what amuses us and what it is that we absolutely must achieve.
And then work with her.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 14, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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I'd say that, more importantly, it comes down to personal opinions on what "responsible" and "critical resource" mean.
These are dependent on belief systems and values, which vary from person to person.
This is largely so IMO but I reject the proto-post modern idea that all such things are merely social constructions that can be interpreted many ways, each equally true.
Case in point, "responsible" or at any rate, "ecologically conscious," simply means that seek to limit your impact to a place to a bare minimum. There isn't a great deal of wiggle room here for "interpretations." You either basically leave the place like you round it, or you don't.
I climbed over a hundred FAs at Josh and hardly ever had to use bolts. But at that time we could do ten FAs in a day if we wanted to do and not leave Hidden Valley.
JL
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 12:00am PT
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Like Largo I started climbing in JT in 1970. I have seen the evolution. I have climbed many FA's and can count the amount of bolts I personally have drilled on my fingers and toes. Some by hand and some by power. I don't do as many FA's as a lot of my friends.
I have climbed other people's routes with bolts and loved them. They were placed on a natural line in harmony with the rock, and with what it allowed. There is something really special about climbing a route and leaving minimal trace (other than maybe some chalk).
When nuts became available, we gave up pins. When cams were invented, nuts were relegated to a different place on the rack, but still there.
Bolts were reserved for places where there were no other options. For stances (real or hooked), or anchors on a blank face or summit.
Minimal impact should be the ethic to preserve the beauty of rocks and surrounding environment.
I know this is subjective, but I have to keep putting it out there.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 15, 2012 - 11:18am PT
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TY: Safety lies between one's ears. Boy, am I in trouble.
Brokedownclimber: Point taken. The last time I climbed Stichter Quits, it was still Black Tide. However recent posts over on Mountain Project are claiming it's a 5.8+, PG 13 these days, and our own Dee ee suggested a 5.9 rating. There is a possible nasty ankle and leg breaking fall before reaching the first bolt.
I did see a girl from New York sprain her ankle there. Still, there's no way that it's 5.9. I could never lead 5.9 at Josh.
Sorry to go off on a tangent, this is a very interesting thread. I'll try to make the climber's coffee Saturday.
edit: stzzo makes a very good point, which lies at the heart of the matter.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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stzzo, you're leading us into a gray area which has become a favorite peeve of mine.
personally, i pick up others' trash--occasionally--if there isn't too much of it. when an area gets really bad, i think it's time to organize a cleanup.
but i also step back another step and look at the culture and what the culture is doing. dennis banks, the great american indian movement activist, used to complain that his home reservation in south dakota was practically covered with pampers. mothers would throw them out--just as they may have done with waste back in teepee days--and the wind would blow them everywhere. old tribal life involved moving from a site when it got too worn. then the area would recover naturally. such behavior is part of culture and it's hard to change.
so let's look at what white man culture does. what's worse--pampers--mostly tree fiber--and babysh#t, or a nuke spill into the pacific ocean such as we were treated to by the japanese a year ago, and which might easily happen here at san onofre?
the environmental movement has turned to gazing at its own navel, concentrating on the pretty little places and letting the rest of the world go to heck. that's because it's up against political forces which fail to respond so that a policy of integrity can be worked out. i'm talking about industry and effluent and air pollution, the latter which could have been gotten under control years ago if someone hadn't killed the electric car.
watch that movie, who killed the electric car.
and check my post at the end of this thread, which compares the big hoopla over a little frog habitat with what really happens when big money is part of the equation.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1459010&tn=80
so, yea. keep joshua tree clean. but there are much bigger battles out there. please don't forget them, or think that you are doing enough by being a neat park visitor.
------------------------------
sorry for a long post, but this thread is worth three good threads and a million "somebody kicked my dog" trolls. if you're bored by tony bird, just go down to where locker reminds you about what yer gonna do.
i went over to the echo area with a couple friends from the pit last year. they were young people, had been climbing a bit--clark jacobs took them under his wing for a week, so you can bet they were well-primed. but, come to find out, neither had done a lead climb yet. so she undertook stichter. she took quite awhile, but managed to clip that first bolt. then she took a fall on it. that's enough for now.
then her boyfriend stepped up and sent the whole thing smoothly like he'd been climbing for 150 years. it was his first real lead on real rock. beautiful.
prior to that, i led stick to what. i had climbed it, maybe even led it, couldn't remember, more than 20 years ago and wanted to revisit an old friend. wow--what a bracing old friend. what i noticed is that, once you figure out that first, bolt-protected move, each subsequent move over the 20-30 feet to the next bolt is just slightly easier. that makes it a real classic. if i had fallen in that territory, it would have been nice to have had a belayer practiced in running off to shorten the catch to prevent it from being a grounder. a dangerous climb. the NPS interpretive sign at the echo parking lot calls it a 5.9; it used to be considered a 5.9 slab classic. miramontes puts it at 10aR. gaines doesn't even include it in best climbs--perhaps it has broken a lot of bones over the years.
gaines does include stichter quits and nearby double dip, which he rates 5.6PG. i've never climbed double dip, but i can only imagine noob sport climbers here from europe or rockreation confronted with what they hope might be a "sport" wall with these bracing routes on it. and the rumors i hear about gordon's climbs is that--hehehe--mighty sporty, my friends, mighty sporty.
----------------
anyway, one last bit here, turning over the stage to willis keys, son of the late and noteworthy bill keys, and art kidwell in growing up at the desert queen ranch, available at the NPS visitors center:
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Mar 15, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Walk softly and carry a big stick clipper.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 15, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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But all those stonemaster guys did all the first ascents.
There's none left!!!!
I must chip new route.
Whaaaaa, I hate those stonemasters ......
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 15, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Ironically, I think desert racers can teach desert climbers a thing or two about envornmental awareness.
There is no ambiguity in the meaning of "responsible" behavior in the desert racing community.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 15, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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Bernadette is living proof that the latest generation can and does care about our natural resources.
When we degrade younger generation(s), we only serve to degrade our ability to teach.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 15, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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JL, I understand what you're saying, but I'd say that there are people who don't equate "ecologically conscious" with "responsible" -- people who think the land is to do with what they please, and that doing so is not irresponsible.
I actually think that this kind of logic only exists on paper and academia, and is not something that is practiced in the real world. For instance, I think we can all agree that leaving something as we found it is "ecologically conscious," insofar as that term denotes attempts at preserving the as-is status of our limited resources. Now if some trashes said resources, and calls it "responsible," or does not consider it irresponsible, we simple move to his very house, or car, or computer, and burn it to the ground and say, "Hey, that';s not irresponsible." Of course we cannot do that because, as mentioned, in the real world we have a common-usage understanding of things that is derived on how we live our actual lives, and no sane person lives as though all of his stuff needs not be preserved whatsoever, and that to burn it all to ashes is not "irresponsible."
In the case of the outdoors, many people simply believe that because no one "owns" the place, they can trash it at will. These are the disenfranchised who do not understand that the very stuff they thrash is no different than their own home, since both belong to them.
JL
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