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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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"I grew up in the oilfields and I know more about "it" than you apparently do since you don't seem to have been at it long enough to have been through the inevitable downturn. "
I grew up around gambling, doesn't mean I know anything about the Mafia.
And I got laid off from my first job in 1996. Worked, or managed through 3 downturns so far, thank you very much. I know what 60 cent copper and 260 gold look like.
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Gene
climber
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Actually there are years like 2009-10 when Grandma's assessment will decrease just like everyone else's. 2% is only the max increase. It changes by the lessor of the 2% figure, or the change in CCPI, the Cal Consumer Price index, which can even be negative in down years. There have been 6 years when the increase was between 1 & 2%, and one year (2010) when the CCPI actually went down by .237%. So Grandma's assessment will be something like 5-6% less than $85K. which will be passed to her Rich heirs. (By any sane definition, anyone who inherits a house is rich).
True dat, Splater. I tried to keep the scenario simple.
How about this one: Joe Blow takes the age 55 transfer to a new home of equal or less selling price/purchase price. The assessment in the first home is a Prop 8 value (lower of mkt value or factored base year value). What's his assessment basis in the new home?
Who cares!
g
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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The assessment in the first home is a Prop 8 value (lower of mkt value or factored base year value). What's his assessment basis in the new home?
Is he a gay man wanting to get married?
I think you meant prop 13....
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Gene
climber
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Bluering,
The other Prop 8!
A Proposition 8 reduction is a form of assessment relief. It may be applied when a property's assessed value exceeds the current market value.
I think I meant Prop 8.
g
EDIT: Is he a gay man wanting to get married?
Under California tax law, a transfer between domestic partners is the same as an interspousal transfer - no reassessment is allowed.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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"Hey Dave do you do open pit work or what? Just curious about the job, nothing to do with this political bullshit trolling. Not a trick question.
DMT "
Dingus: The mine I work at is one of the largest underground mines in the country, by daily production. It's an underground "panel cave". The video in the link below is a decent approximation of the method, at least in terms of the development of the mine (8 minutes):
http://www.azomining.com/video-details.aspx?VidID=23
Here's another good one - pick #2 (6 minutes):
http://wn.com/Block_Caving_Yeralt%C4%B1_Blok_Gocertme_Yontemi#
Ours is a bit different in sequence, and a lot bigger in size. We constantly develop new drawbells as the tail end of the cave is exhausted. Our production level sits 5000 feet beneath the summit of the mountain above us, so we have stresses of 4000-5000 psi before mining begins. Once the cave develops, stresses on the rock pillars increase to 6000-7000 psi. That stress means we need a lot of ground support - think shotcrete you see on highwalls in the mountains, various types of rock bolts and cable bolts, and mesh. And since the cave moves, and there is a lot of ore above us, the rock degrades, so we have to go back and repair areas.
Yup, caving the mountain in on top of us, on purpose? Sounds safe? We actually have one of the lowest accident rates in the US, and the incidents we've had this year have been things like sprained ankles (getting off equipment) or tweaked fingers. We have a lot of good people, no unions, and good management and engineers. Everyone is committed.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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i was honestly hoping this would turn into a mining thread.
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Gene
climber
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Hi Dave.
g
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Hi Gene. :)
Sorry. Mining is cool. Its like a little kids dream - a giant sandbox and explosives. I could talk about pensions in mining if it makes you feel better.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dave, if your mine is safe then to a large degree you owe it to the Federal Government and the Unions that forced them to enact and enforce safety regulations. The mine owners don't spend money out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a lot cheaper to kill and replace the help than it is to keep them alive.
Only in the industry since the 90's? Like I said, wait till the whole segment your in collapses because the price isn't there. I've been through it. If you stay in it you'll have the same experience.
And Fatturd, maybe you heard a shot in the distance somewhere. If a shooter couldn't hit your huge gut they were probably legaly blind. Extremely dangerous? You must be talking about having a heart attack or a stroke. It must be embarrasing to the real cops having hangers-on like you.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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mp, i would love to see something like data on percentage of students at for-profits who are cal state employees (or for that matter, federal employees). but no one seems to have any, and what studies ive read on the for-profits (ive been following the series in the che) don't seem to have any data on that issue either.
I'll acknowledge that I can't cite the specific data on the ratios - just my own anecdotal observations.
And I never mentioned "welfare-mothers" - you're making a strong case but you went a little strawman on that one.
No numbers on government in general, but some military stats (Wikipedia):
The University of Phoenix was also named one of the nation's top 20 institutions of higher education favorable to military personnel, according to the December 2008 issue of Military Advanced Education.
As to your point about teaching credentials:
http://www.phoenix.edu/campus-locations/ca/california-teaching-credential.html
Yes, I consider Phoenix to be a diploma mill. Not a full-on fraud like the ones referenced in my earlier links, but effectively a diploma mill, for the reasons I stated earlier (essentially no meaningful admission or graduation standards.)
My wife is a teacher without a master's degree, and she's been tempted. A little bit of work and a guaranteed raise - for life.
And it's not just teaching:
http://www.phoenix.edu/information/online-criminal-justice.html
The articles I cited were really in response to elcap's claim that my arguments "are a joke," as if to suggest there's nothing going on. His argument seems to be based upon the claim education doesn't factor at all into government jobs and pay scales. The number of cases they found in the study vs. the total number of federal employees is not useful data. We simply don't know how extensive the investigation was, and they were only looking for completely "bogus" universities - not the Phoenixes and other "diploma mills" that are, technically, "accredited." What is relevant is that there is clearly a financial incentive to create these schools and people are enrolling in them in large numbers.
The reason I brought this into the debate was the original claim that state employees are overpaid and the rebuttal that government employees are paid well because they are highly educated. I assert that many government employees do have the piece of paper, but we should look at where it is from because government will accept any diploma as a "qualification" whereas the private sector is more selective.
The only real response I've received is the claim that education doesn't matter at all in government pay scales, which is pretty hard to believe.
Back to my simple question, which no one has yet answered.
If the degree doesn't matter, why are the schools offering them, and why are people in government pursuing them?
The answer will stand as "because the incentive is there" until we get a better explanation.
Or we can just have another Prop 13 debate...
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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The Coal Mine Act was enacted in 1969. The Mine Safety and Health Act was enacted in 1977 and regulated hard rock mines as well as coal, and created MSHA - this act was a direct result of the Sunshine mine fire and had little to do with unions. These acts DID result in significant changes in the trend in deaths and injuries in mines. They are shining examples of good government. I work quite often with former US Bureau of Mines folks - now a part of CDC / NIOSH, whose work quite often influences MSHA policy.
However, you are wrong about mine owners - it is no longer cheaper to kill employees and hire new ones. China maybe. The rest of the world has changed. It takes 2-5 years to train a productive, thoroughly trained miner competent on muckers, drills, bolters, shotcrete and concrete equipment, and haul trucks. Would you invest that time and effort only to lose time on injuries and retraining? New underground mining equipment is computerized and electronic, many times using tele-remote control.
Its not 1880 anymore, chief.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Interestingly, only 5% of law enforcement agencies in the US require *any* college of applicants. And in the USA, approximately 50 police agencies require a four-year college degree of their applicants.
Not to say having one won't hurt, but it's hardly paving the way for cadets.
edit: The only real response I've received is the claim that education doesn't matter at all in government pay scales, which is pretty hard to believe.
At least I tried to convey that it is not an all or nothing thing. Maybe in some cases the degree earns some bonus goodies. In my case, it did not. In the case of others in the govt I know, it did not. I don't think anyone can say "it always helps" or "it never hurts."
There is variation.
As far as why people get degrees if it doesn't matter in terms of pay... I find there are lots of reasons. I went to college because I enjoyed learning. It is how I entertained myself. Others go because they want to make someone in the family proud (i.e., first college graduate). Others do it because they honestly want to learn something. I see lots of students who do it because their parents are making them. Some do it in the hopes it will help them get a job in a tough market. And some do it in the hopes of getting a promotion or higher pay.
Again, there is variation.
I also know some folks who do not understand the different types of accreditation. They learn the hard way that the degree they got is a piece of paper not honored by many places. They do have nice hefty students loans to show for it usually though.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Interestingly, only 5% of law enforcement agencies in the US require *any* college of applicants. And in the USA, approximately 50 police agencies require a four-year college degree of their applicants.
Yeah, my initial reaction to that is, "Why do you need a 4-year degree to enforce the law".
But maybe it's a discipline thing. Earning a degree promotes intellect, judgement, and logic depending on the degree.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Yeah, my initial reaction to that is, "Why do you need a 4-year degree to enforce the law".
But maybe it's a discipline thing. Earning a degree promotes intellect, judgement, and logic depending on the degree.
I think any education, whether in an institution of higher learning (regardless of major), working, or even traveling benefits society. Plus, officers do far more than 'enforce the law.' They act as social workers. They solve disputes (not necessarily infractions of the law). They assist folks in need of help. In the early 1900s, it was proposed that all officers get a college degree because it's important to have thoughtful people interacting with the public. These are the people can can introduce you to the CJ system and change your life - not always for the better.
edit: Just stumbled on this from the Arlington PD:
"Numerous studies conducted since the 1970s have suggested that a college education enhances law enforcement. Benefits of higher education in policing include:
Better behavioral and performance characteristics
Fewer on-the-job injuries and assaults
Fewer disciplinary actions from accidents and force allegations
Less use of sick time
Greater acceptance of minorities
Decrease in dogmatism, authoritarianism, rigidity and conservatism
Fewer citizen complaints
Promotion of higher aspirations
Enhancement of minority recruitment."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I think any education, whether in an institution of higher learning (regardless of major), working, or even traveling benefits society. Plus, officers do far more than 'enforce the law.' They act as social workers. They solve disputes (not necessarily infractions of the law). They assist folks in need of help.
Er, uh....I totally agree.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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look, the fact that you dont know if the report that didnt support your argument was as extensive as it could be doesnt change the fact that it doesnt support your argument. you're just flailing now.
i'd be really surprised if most or even a significant plurality of california teachers were getting advanced degrees (let alone BAs) at UoP: The CalStates are vastly cheaper. In Mississippi? Virginia? Maybe. But that's nothing to do with California's budget.
we dont have the sort of data you are claiming. the data dont exist. and no, that's not a point in your favor. you're just living off google at this point.
it may well that the federal (i.e., no state) military is a big driver for diploma mills. it'd be worh finding out. i suspect someone right now is doing that research, given what's been happening the last few years.
and yes, it's a scandal that the feds are pumping money into for-profit universities that generate no public infrastructure, no research, and externalize all of their costs in the form of insane default rates. it's no accident that the for-profits have rise in almost direct correlation to the systematic disinvestment in public universities.
the only reason that california voters havent passed an initiative to demand that the state fire everyone in the jc system and farm its jobs out to contractors is that the state tried to get for-profits to offer some jc courses. kaplan put in a bid: the fees were going to be vastly higher than what the JCs charge.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Bluering: Hope I didn't sound like I disagreed with you. I don't! (I edited the previous post with some added stuff too).
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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I read a book about you Fats,"Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them".
Last I heard, that legendary high crime area of Malibu isn't anywhere close to any bad neighborhoods in LA. And ride-along hangers on don't "work" by themselves.
You and the drunken, kung fu master wolfboy alter-ego's of the same poster? Sure seems like it.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dave, and had little to do with unions
You are blowing smoke out of your ass by refusing to acknowledge the role that Union men played by literally fighting and laying down their lives for your safety. Without the United Mine Workers they would still be stacking you guys up like cordwood.
Just two years ago in Utah was a shining example of how benevelent mine owners can be. The owners are REALLY good at playing guys like you off the other workers. Yeah, that's the ticket, we're better off with no representation. Maybe you should go back to the company town days, I know you'd rather get paid in company scrip.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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look, the fact that you dont know if the report that didnt support your argument was as extensive as it could be doesnt change the fact that it doesnt support your argument. you're just flailing now.
i'd be really surprised if most or even a significant plurality of california teachers were getting advanced degrees (let alone BAs) at UoP: The CalStates are vastly cheaper. In Mississippi? Virginia? Maybe. But that's nothing to do with California's budget.
we dont have the sort of data you are claiming. the data dont exist. and no, that's not a point in your favor. you're just living off google at this point.
Sorry that I make the effort to includes some references and substantiate my claims.
And I never actually claimed the "degree mill" phenomenon was THE problem, just that it supported the idea that state employees were overcompensated, which is not THE problem either, but one of many components of it.
But I've noticed that your quick to poke holes in other's arguments, but you don't even try to bring any data to the table in this discussion. Your one external reference, the budget calculator, does nothing to support your claim that the initiative process is the main culprit. We've gone though this exercise in another thread and I gave the little puzzle a spin and didn't find it that hard. The initiatives were hardly a constraint at all.
So how about stepping up to your own standard (or at least matching mine) and bring some substantiated facts? I'll settle for "living off google" or circumstantial evidence backed by common-sense arguments.
Expressions like "those of us in the know" and mention of studies that you've seen (but don't bother to reference) really don't do much to substantiate your arguments.
So I'm calling bullshit on your "initiatives is the problem" claim. Back it up. I'll even give you the "bullet-train" as a head start. And I suggest you go with something other than Prop 13 because there is plenty of evidence on both sides of that argument (and I have it all at my fingertips - I'm "in the know" myself on that one.) If you are going to claim stuff like "three strikes" is breaking the budget then lets hear how letting repeat violent offenders on the street is the answer for California.
BTW: There's a large, quite legitimate university right smack-dab in the middle of California that uses the initials "UoP." You might want to "be in the know" about that before you start claiming expertise about the state.
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