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melski
Trad climber
bytheriver
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Apr 23, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
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like it or not we"re gumbes on the bus,,chow for now
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Apr 23, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
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Perhaps climbing should put its own house in order first. Ugly piton scars, almost impossible to repair, mar almost every cliff and the desecration continues. The gardening that opens up some new climbs destroys whole plant communities and may destroy rare plants, definitely contrary to park policy.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 23, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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I think we should leave the cables, but they should only be used for getting up halfadome. People should be left to their own devices to get down for a true wild-erness experience.
I'm "down" with that.
Take your pick:
1) Downclimbing solo (oh, boy . . . perhaps Honnold et. al. can feel comfy doing so.)
2) Rapping like cavers. (Boy, is that a lot of ropes.)
3) BASE Jumping your wing-suit. (The greatest thrills per second no doubt.)
4) Paragliding straight to the Mtn. Room bar for a cold one. (sweeeeeeet)
I pick number 4 ;-)
Where do I sign up?
Edit:
I'd be even willing to fly a NPS LEO tandem to get the opportunity to fly off Half Dome safely. Would be very coooooooooool.
WEll, just as long as they don't start blabbing while in flight about how they really are good people . . . we are just misunderstood . . . we are just like you . . . we only use tazzers on criminals . . . hey, wait a minute we aren't supposed to be flying off HD . . . I'm sorry I'm gonna have to tazzer you on the way down . . .
Uh, oh.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 23, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
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I'm guessing that the selfish types will pick the item in the list that describes what they like to do and excludes everyone else. Who is brave enough to restrict their own access? Anyone for items 1, 2, or 3?
The philosophy embodied in this is "The Tragedy of the Commons"
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Dude, I totally got this.
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Apr 24, 2011 - 12:20am PT
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I still prefer bagels. I'd take me down some bagels.
Yes sir. Cables, Shmables. Have a bagel.
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Simmeron
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 25, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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This is one of those situations where the NPS (and climbers) should realize that this is a necessary evil. It allows many people to be exposed to a wilderness area and have a quasi-wilderness experience. This in turn helps preserve wilderness when people are able to experience something of the sort as being atop Half Dome.
Let's point the fingers at ourselves and clean up all the rap slings and climber's trails criss-crossing through Yosemite. Likewise, I'd hate to see the day that climber's are denied access to Reed's Pinnacle because of the danger of a climber kicking a rock down onto the highway.
Leave the cables and let the general public have their fun. And as far as people unnecessarily dying: a great aspect of wilderness is that it is not sterilized for safety's sake.
If you really want to make a difference, make the Royal Arches raps easier to find so climbers are not "unnecessarily dying."
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 25, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
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Bolts and fixed gear all over the place and you worry about a simple via ferrata that enables non-climbers' access? There should be more VFs across the country, not less. The cables on Longs Peak were delightful when I scampered up them in 1954.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
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Have to disagree with you John but, in this country, that's okay. Cables on Half Dome, cables on Longs Peak, fixed ropes on Everest......on and on, keep them coming, let's put an end to adventure and discovery.
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SoyAnarchisto
Boulder climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
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Take 'em down - and put in a TRAM!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
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Everything is relative, no absolutes. I just would like to see the natural world dealt with by more natural means.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 25, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
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Donini, I heard a hilarious story about you encountering a somewhat inebriated guy after a slide show in Denver (or Boulder?). He said you were his hero and then proceeded to try and wrestle you into a campfire, but ended up there himself, instead. True story?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 26, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
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Have to disagree with you John but, in this country, that's okay
You bet!
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jstan
climber
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Apr 26, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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Unnatural means are on the ascendency. Dyed in the wool climbers actually modifying the rock to get up and then they batman a rope instead of walking down. Rope only for safety is history.
There are always tradeoffs. There are priorities. I found the via ferrata in northern Italy great fun. All kinds of people were up there to see the park commemorating a WWI battleground. The artificial amendments to the terrain were serving purposes much larger than just the needs of people merely seeking adventure.
Ideally we would sort through these priorities taking care that you have to walk in to some places and some places don't have any artificial garbage. While you can belay out of your driver's seat in others.
But that does not appear to be the way we are going. Therein is the real shame.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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So there's no bagels?
((sniff)) That's too bad. I like bagels.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Apr 29, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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I start with the value that there should be some allotment of places with an appropriate adventure threshold for all levels of experience and ability. Halfdome cables and via ferratas in general fit well within this value system.
The main issue is regulating that things held sacred to a given class of folks are maintained, rather than destroyed by making accessibility too easy or too hard.
If one makes an argument for removing artificial stuff that makes an adventure more accessible, I see the following consequences: hammers would be illegal on a route if it had ever gone clean; bolts chopped from all lines that have been free soloed. After Alex Honnold spends a few seasons in the valley, protected face climbs would no longer exist.
If one clings to the illusion of less technology for more adventure, what about sticky rubber, waterproof breathable lightweight clothing, lightweight high calorie food, etc.
It's all a relative scale, a slippery slope, and any specific cut-off point will work for a very small group of people and disenfranchise a lot more.
So back to my original value statement, that there should be an allotment of the resources allocated to groups with a wide range of abilities and levels of experience. Overall, I think our country does this pretty well. We have some places that are "wild west" style life-in-your-own-hands (maybe less so than some other countries), and some places that are super regulated and safe, and some places at all levels of controlled risk in between.
We are free to choose which areas we enjoy, but we should not think we have the right to control how everywhere else is allocated amongst all the competing interests.
Or the pithy version: "lots o' rock in this world, go find your own adventure."
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Rick Sylvester
Trad climber
Squaw Valley, California
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May 10, 2011 - 05:58am PT
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Why didn't I think of that, Jim? Pure Gordian Knot genius solution. Tom Stienstra writes a twice weekly outdoors column for the "San Francisco Chronicle". It contains a lot of the traditional so-called American Sportsman(sic) hunting and fishing content. But he also as often as not goes beyond that to more real adventure outdoorsy stuff, environmental matters, et al. Recently he devoted a lot of ink to the issue of overcrowding on the cables. The park service has instituted a permit lottery system. Already for the coming season all the permits are gone, at least for weekends and holiday periods.
Now I can see both sides to the issue about denying non technical climbers access to a wonderful life enhancing experience. But what about the "Summits and Secrets" idea, that the knowledge of whatever lies high up is for only those who can get to the summit, and presumably by legitimate fair means (please don't ask me to define "legitimate and "fair")? The Furgg teleferique in Zermatt was envisioned as having three stages, one more than currently exist. The third was supposed to go to the top of the Matterhorn. It was a rare loss for the gnomes of Zurich.
Footnote: Many of us have long felt that "Summits and Secrets" is the greatest title of any mountaineering/climbing tome. My understanding is that it turns out that it was not author and legendary climber Kurt Diemberger's creation but that of the lowly translator. The oriignal German title literally meant "Summits and Companions".
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Pablo27
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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I'm an experienced climber and the exposure and the slick rock coming down the cables is a heads up experience. It seems crazy for people with no experience to go up there. I can't believe there have not been more accidents. Then again if you have 100+ people behind you in line to give you a spot, you're probably not going far if you do freak out. I'd be stoked to see them gone.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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Yeah so you're a climber.
The half dome cables are not about climbers.
It's a public hiking trail.
Climbers have no say from your high lofty "climbing" perspectives.
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Ahwahnee Bartender
Big Wall climber
Fog Town
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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Hey Randisi, I see you took your photo in August of 1975. Mine was taken 1 month prior in July. It was a huge winter in the cables got put up late. In fact, NPS maintenance was just starting to place the struts and 2X4's about an hour before we started to bat man up the downed cables. The freaky thing is that both our photos look to be taken in almost the same spot!
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