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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 15, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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There's an obvious and purposely unmentioned symbolism of all this.
What was Cordoba? (Cordoba house)
Cordoba was the capital of the Andalusian caliphate and lost in the reconquesta of Spain from Islam. An historic event of long lament by Muslims.
Mosques at the location of Islamic military victories are ubiquitous.
This is a bad idea.
For both sides!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 15, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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I wish to point out that "degenerate gamblers" and "patrons of pornography" are minding their own business, living their lives as they see fit. They are not bombing and killing anyone else in the name of a "jihad" or holy war versus the west. Give me a drunken gambler or male who likes to see pictures/movies of naked women (i.e. normal men) any day over a terrorist murderer.
See, there you go again. I do not see a proposal to place terrorist murderers in the place of gamblers and patrons. To characterize these moderates that way is just disgusting.
The way that we will coexist with the billion followers of the muslim faith is not to find the best way to exterminate them (although, that is what they say we are doing---are they right?)
The best way is to find peaceful coexistence, and the leadership and acceptance of moderate muslims is clearly the best way.
"If I turn my enemies into my friends, have I not defeated my enemy?"
Of course, that was said by Abraham Lincoln, who saved the country.
And he was a Republican.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 15, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
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LEBBB wrote...Sorry, Karl, if I don't exactly give a sh#t about their sacred civil liberties. My sympathies are more with the 3000 people who are no longer with us today and the families who morn the losses. Sure, build a mosque, no problem. Just find some other (less in-your-face) place to build it.
it is two city blocks from ground zero...it is on private property. STFU will you.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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Lois writes
Well, Karl, be that as it may, 3000 people is a heck of a lot of dead folks whose point of demise is not terribly far from said proposed mosque. Not withstanding the link that Ken has posted, I will submit that the condemnation from the Muslim world regarding the events of 9/11 has not been exactly resounding and clear cut. It's been sort of half-hearted, if you ask me, and then not all the leaders have even gone so far as to even condemn the acts in the first place.
Well, the number the USA killed in Iraq since 2003 is many, many times more than that, and there are millions of homeless refugees there. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and yet where was the widespread, clear cut, and resounding condemnation from the Christian world?
Lois, you're just being hateful and hypocritical.
Peace
Karl
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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(Against my better judgment about getting involved here,) I gotta say that I can't help but notice that the condemnation from the Nursing World regarding the events of 9/11 has not been exactly resounding and clear cut.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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(Against my better judgment about getting involved here,)
While I really enjoy your participation in our ongoing clusterchuckles, you're either in or you're out! Quit trying to be the 'outsider'. Take a side and state your case. Or just stay out of it. Why else would you chime in?
I love ya too, Callie, I'm just sayin'...I welcome your refreshing intellect and new insights. Quit being shy. You got something to say???? Say it!
Rock on, gal.
Well, the number the USA killed in Iraq since 2003 is many, many times more than that, and there are millions of homeless refugees there. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and yet where was the widespread, clear cut, and resounding condemnation from the Christian world?
Lois, you're just being hateful and hypocritical.
Karl, Iraq had a world of hurt coming to her for a while. Remember the 90's?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
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The mosque is not being built at ground zero. This is a fact.
They have every right to build that mosque where ever they want. This is a fact.
It may not be the best PR decision to build that mosque where ever they want. This is an opinion.
I am not king and can't make them do what I think is best. This is a fact.
Seems simple to me.
edit: My reluctance in participating in threads like this is because I'm not into arguing as a sport. I do however like hearing information from all sides and digesting it. It seems to me that too often arguing is far more common than an exchange of informed ideas and thoughtful consideration of those ideas.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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They have every right to build that mosque where ever they want. This is a fact.
It may not be the best PR decision to build that mosque where ever they want. This is an opinion.
I am not king and can't make them do what I think is best. This is a fact.
Seems simple to me.
Absolutely correct!! But is it in bad taste? That is the question. If these rat-f*#ks wanted to show 'tolerance' as they keep saying, wouldn't they respect overwhelming condemnation by NY'ers??
It's seems they do it in spite of them, intentionally. Almost an affront to them. Ya know?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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edit: My reluctance in participating in threads like this is because I'm not into arguing as a sport. I do however like hearing information from all sides and digesting it. It seems to me that too often arguing is far more common than an exchange of informed ideas and thoughtful consideration of those ideas
So why 'argue' or discuss ideas. Maybe we should all just conform....
I get your point, Callie, but there is progress through heated debate. Sometimes, but it's still progress.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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Taste - good or bad - is an opinion.
They are not a homogeneous group any more than Christians are a homogeneous group or nurses are a homogeneous group or females are a homogeneous group or New Yorkers are a homogeneous group.
If somehow the f*#ks that flew the planes that day survived and were trying to build a temple of some sort honoring their beliefs and actions on or even near (e.g., within 5000 miles) ground zero, that would be terrible taste in my opinion. THIS would be an affront. This would be doing something to spite humanity.
But that is not what is happening.
The folks wanting to do this did not fly the planes. They did not plan the attacks. They just happen to share a religious name that the terrorists claimed. Being labeled with the same religion does not make them terrorists or responsible for 9/11. They are no more responsible for 9/11 than you are for the whacko criminals that kill abortion doctors or prostitutes or anyone else in the name of Christianity. They are no more responsible for 9/11 than people who drink alcohol are for all the people killed by drunk drivers.
I did not state in my previous post whether I thought it was a good idea because it's only that - an opinion. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me a bit if they do it or not since they are not the terrorists responsible for the attacks.
In my opinion, this is yet another bullshit topic that politicians are using to their advantage for election. This is politics at its worst (the norm). Get the base angry over some non-issue so they'll vote for some person who can maintain their political position.
I think there are plenty of issues out there to get worked up over. A group having nothing to do with 9/11 (except having been present during the actual attack as they were already in the area) wanting to build a mosque several blocks from ground zero isn't one of them for me.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Callie wrote: n my opinion, this is yet another bullshit topic that politicians are using to their advantage for election. This is politics at its worst (the norm). Get the base angry over some non-issue so they'll vote for some person who can maintain their political position.
Just like WMD's, Gay marriage, abortion and death panels.
Lower the bar, then drop it lower to reach their base.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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I don't see arguing as productive. It's like watching two year olds fight. Some people enjoy this I know (not watching 2 year olds fight, but arguing). I am just not one of them.
In contrast, I find that discussion is something I enjoy very much. It's something I learn a great deal from. It is something I am happy to engage in. But it requires informed participants with open minds who are listening - really listening - to each other.
I see the two as different exercises.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 16, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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I am not king...
Wouldn't it be Queen Callie? :-)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 16, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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Who said anything about "exterminating" them. Certainly not me. I am not into "jihad," remember? When more of the Muslims come out and decry the atrocities committed both here and in their own country, that is when I will afford them the respect you claim they deserve. What I have heard in the way of "disapproval" is not very much and it is certainly not very convincing - more like crocodile tears, if you ask me.
LEB, are you totally clueless about this issue? It is AMERICANS who are desiring to (re_)build this mosque, not Saudis, Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, or Afghanis. AMERICANS. You seem very concerned about foreigners who are muslims, but they are NOT INVOLVED in this issue!
When you start to actually read the mainstream muslim press, THEN you can complain. You have made blanket statements about muslims, and have backed NONE of it up with any references or links.
You don't differentiate between muslim extremists and mainstream muslims. Look at your posts. When you lump everyone together, that is stereotyping. You appear to have no sympathy for the innocent muslims that were killed by the extremists of 911, are they somehow less American because of their religion?
The moderates muslims are trying to change the radical thinking of the extremists, particularly of young muslims. You're desire to interfere with their efforts provides material assistance to the terrorists. Why would you do that??? Why are you helping America's enemies?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 16, 2010 - 03:23am PT
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This is so typical...
Grouping an entire segment of the world's peoples due to the actions of a few nutjobs...
Hey not all Germans were Nazis...
and dare I say...not all Repubs/Dems/etc are knuckleheads...
In my mind too many American's paid the ultimate sacrifice throughout our country's history so that Mosque COULD be built there.
Is it in good/bad taste?
Depends on what happens as an outcome (and obviously your point of view).
I see it as a positive step in building bridges of understanding and tolerance.
Muslims are not the enemy (and it sounds like there are some here that think that).
Intolerance is.
Cheers,
DD
edit: that rat-f**k comment is typical Blue...
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Aug 16, 2010 - 03:25am PT
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Go to the Butte Bouldering Bash that place is cool no matter what religion you are.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Aug 16, 2010 - 08:04am PT
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I don't see the same willingness of the part of the Muslims to openly and loudly censure the evil-doers within their own ranks.
Here, to get you started. There are really countless people that have spoken out...there are a lot more links "if you try"
http://revjimsutter.blogspot.com/2006/10/muslims-speak-out-against-terrorism.html
You just don't ever hear about it because frankly, it doesn't make good press and it keeps people "livin in fear", something the lamestream media is great at!!
C, I'm not scared, I'm with Barnes, DD, Bob, et al. Mebbe the "strict constructionists" that sure don't understand the Constitution should move somewheres else...
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 16, 2010 - 08:05am PT
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In today's WSJ: The Islamic Center of Temecula Valley..."plans to build a 25,000-square-foot mosque in conservative Riverside County outside of Los Angeles. Opponents have said it will draw extremists and traffic."
I am so thankful I live in Cleveland...we don't have traffic.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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Lois wrote
It is my belief that there is a strong inhibition in the Muslin crowd to speak out against their own. Whether it is cultural or whatever, the end result is that we do not see a whole lot of vocal condemnation of extremist from this crowd, in the general sense.
Lois, Nobody likes to speak out against their own. Like I said before, where was the peace-loving Christian condemnation over the illegal and immoral Iraq invasion (or the torture, if you somehow think Iraq had it coming because, after all, they tortured people!) You don't even hear the Catholics going public loud and clear against child molestation...Why? Because they don't want to give the impression that Catholicism and Child Molestation are linked!!! and it isn't! Would you protest a Catholic church going in close to an elementary school?
If we really wanted to support moderate Islam, really didn't want to give the terrorists their main objective on 9-11 (to create a war between the west and Islam) and Christains really wanted to walk the teachings of Jesus, we should all line up and stand up for that mosque going in right where they want it. Churches should protest the discrimination and support their Muslim Brothers and Sisters. Islam, after all, is the religion most aligned with Christianity in the world, They believe in Jesus as one of their greatest prophets and believe he is the prophet who will reappear on Judgement day.
Peace
karl
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