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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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My my. Aren't we touchy.
rif is right on.
A culture of entitlement where nobody is responsible.
How dare somebody buy some land and expect me to respect his privacy!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Whether that's the case or not, the property now belongs to somebody.
Your history there is of no consequence, therefore your position is moot.
The property belongs to someone else.
Apparently there was an opportunity to purchase the parcel in question. You, or others who care didn't take advantage of this.
Therefore, you most likely loose.
As far as a gem goes, I doubt it. When I think of the ga-zillions of square miles that is the east side, that is completely open to the public, I just cannot understand any of this.
Petty people, taking petty stances, and being upset when people don't take their side.
Pathetic at best.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Thanks for the accurate info and reporting.
That just further seals it in my opinion. I just don't see the point in pressing access issues any further.
Again, I have to thank you for taking the time to properly research this and contact the owner.
To me, that is the greatest form of respect we as a climbing community can show.
Now, let us all stay the f*#k off the property and leave this guy alone.
There are so many other places worth fighting for access. This is not one of them.
Let us choose our battles wisely!
This is not one of them. If we are truly stewards of the land, then this is a prime example of a time when we need to move our focus elsewhere.
Oh, excuse me, I'm a total climber hater and steward to none...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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You go girl! If this works out, fine. I commend you for your level head and approach.
My only problem is why is this crag that important?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Climbers masquerade as stewards of the land but few are. Most are opportunistic and selfish.
Spending a little time cleaning up other slobs' garbage often leads to an inflated view of their own value in the scheme of things.
I need look no farther than my own backyard where climbers continue to rationalize destructive practices because they can.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Your history there is of no consequence
Actually, I believe if there is a history of use on a piece of land, that does factor into the management policy. Anyone out there know the proper term for what I'm talking about?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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By the way, I think it's time, again, to fully state my position on things.
I stand behind no moniker. I stand behind no false pretenses or false faces. I will tell anyone here in person what I have said here. I will absolutely stand by my words.
My name is Robert Fonda, I live in Joshua Tree Ca.
I'm not a ball less coward like 99% of people on this site who are not willing to stand up to what they hold so dear to their "hearts".
You have to have one before you can embrace it...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"Actually, I believe if there is a history of use on a piece of land, that does factor into the management policy. Anyone out there know the proper term for what I'm talking about?"
Yes, it's called "BAD ACID". At least that's only thing I can associate with the complete and total self interest that's happening here.
I always love the final ditch effort and the pocket "lawyers" who come out of the woodworks to try and "prove" how righteous they are.
It's really f*#king simple. IT'S NOT YOUR OR MY LAND! STAY THE F*#K OFF.
Since we have now officially reverted back to prenatal thinking, I propose this:
Recognize that there are a ton of places to climb on the east side. The "gen of the desert" argument is f*#king laughable.
LEAVE THE OWNER ALONE.
PICK SOMETHING ACCESS WISE THAT IS NOT PRIVATE PROPERTY THAT IS AN ISSUE, AND FIGHT FOR IT.
I know this is complicated.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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history of access is quite important with california beaches. we have many cases where rich property owners have attempted to keep the public out--and lost.
in the case of fossil falls/little lake, i think the main issue is duck hunting next to a major highway. i've hunted a few ducks myself, and permitting it here seems next to outrageous.
these fellows have obviously never been involved in any public interest action. they seem to be military types who've taken orders since puberty and don't understand that rights have to be exercised or they will atrophy. their idea of questioning authority is, "how high do you want me to jump, SIR?"
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Actually, I believe if there is a history of use on a piece of land, that does factor into the management policy. Anyone out there know the proper term for what I'm talking about?
Easement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easement
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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You need to stop smoking crack, or start.
This is their property.
If the duck hunting is that big a problem, then address that issue at face value. Don't try to disguise it as some self righteous climber issue.
Either hit the pipe, or stop.
Your arguments hold ZERO MERIT with regards to this discussion.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"Easement"
Jesus f*#king christ people are stupid and selfish.
Gee Jeff, are you're meds not working any more?
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Your arguments hold ZERO MERIT with regards to this discussion.
Why? Because YOU say so?
Easement. Yes, that's it. We got access to beaches through this after people decided to buy up land and then shut out the public. Why is this different? Be concrete, don't just give me your opinion. Opinions hold zero merit in this discussion. Facts of law do.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Wrong: Public Easements can be Encumbrance aka a mandatory obligation and/or given or proven to a court if land use has a long history of unimpeded use. RLF, you are wrong. Look up CA law my friend.
Someone should look and see if there is a public easement for FF. My guess is there is due to it's natural / historical attraction.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Calm the f*#k down Robert.
I'm not Jeff.
I'm just answering Slater's question.
I've never climbed at FF, but a history of access and use are pertinent to the discussion.
The rights of property owners are not unlimited, and the rights of non-owners are not non-existent.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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No dumb asses, because it comes down to simple f*#king respect for others.
Is it so hard for you to understand? Or are you caught up in how "bitchen" you are because you are "climbers"?
Have some f*#king respect for other's rights that don't involve your self interests.
F*#king children. "Here we go gathering nut's in May, nut's in May..."
Ring around the rosie....
Grow up. Have some respect.
Whoops, I forgot. One cannot have respect for others until they respect themselves...
This speaks volumes...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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What scares me the most is that I'm going to have explain this concept to a few who could care less about anyone other than themselves.
Sad.
IT'S NOT YOU'RE F*#KING PROPERTY. LEAVE IT ALONE. CLIMB SOMEWHERE ELSE WHERE THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE.
Wow, that's complicated.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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rlf once said,
Being a caretaker of a large parcel surounded by federal land myself, in the middle of a highly traveled area, I find this guys approach to be less than optimal.
When ever I deal with trespassers, and I deal with them alot, I always start out nice. There's no need to escalate the situation until there is good cause to do so.
You're showing yourself to be a real hot-headed jerk; you've done so in other threads too.
I don't know why wally trusts you to know when there is a "need to escalate the situation" when you can't even have a calm discussion here.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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You are cute at best.
Please tell me when I have ever represented myself in person with regards to property I manage?
You cannot.
That's why Wally trusts me.
You clearly don't have a f*#king clue of what you're talking about.
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