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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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RE: "Look, I'm not suggesting you should stop believing in Sasquatch"
thanks for the permisson to think as one will, healye.
I am certain many are relieved by your generosity.
A fine example of a fanatic at work, supressing ideas
and obvious indicators of an interesting mystery.
Shiptons photograph.
Messner's book.
Other documented eye witness
accounts on two continents.
Etc. etc.
Not, as healye would like to believe, proof,
but interesting and somewhat unexplained
indications of a mystery.
A mystery he clearly finds intolerable.
And instead of allowing this thread to function
as data collection, he has seen fit to railroad it
into a monologue of suppression, and the denial
even of simple unexplained data.
The concept of proof was brought by him, for
the sole purpose of denying it, and his rapid
fire attack was designed to destabilize the collection
of relevant information.
So, healye - try this, if you are so convinced that
this phenomena does not exist, I submit you venture
out into the most well documented "named places"* in
BC, for instance, and bring a substantial kit for 5 nights
of deep field ops. Stay "in the zone" for 5 nights alone
and experience the beauty of nature, all by yourself,
and show us for real that you know this mystery,
Sasquatch, does not exist.
You are brave behind a keyboard, healye, so man up
and hit the trail, or are you afraid, after all...?
I call your bluff, healye.
I think there is no way
you can suck it up and
do that for even two nights.
*let the thread author designate location.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Some miscellaneous comments.
1) Snow leopard hypothesis.
I thought of this too, but the Sherpas told me they stay far away from human habitation. Even when you encounter them in the wild they retreat. Another Sherpa friend of mine with his parents and a brother, scared a snow leopard off one of their sheep that the leopard had killed and then carried the sheep carcass home with them.The snow leopard stalked them for awhile, but never attacked and would not go below a certain altitude. The other friend's ox's neck was broken but not punctured. Leopards evidently sufficate their prey and/or puncture the arteries and drink the blood.
2) When Hillary came to Rolwaling looking for yeti, he was sold the skin of a Himalayan blue bear which was identified as a yeti. Blue bears are known for walking upright on their hind feet by the way.
3) Hillary also discovered a wandering Hindu ascetic walking in snow barefoot at 15,000 ft. and a porter whose big toe was deformed and looked like an opposable thumb.
4) Shipton was known to be a practical joker.
5) Foul smells are associated with yeti, but then bears smell pretty bad too.
6) Messner felt the yeti was a Himalayan black or brown bear (I'll have to look it up). In Tibetan it's call Dremo. He also said that Muslims of the Hindu Kush were quite clear that the animal he described was a bear, since they had no yeti legends.
7) I would always be careful about what Sherpas say about wildlife. They're not hunters and don't know much about it. It took me six months to identify two animals I saw once in Rolwaling that looked like Siamese cats. Turned out they were Himalayan yellow throated martins.
All the Sherpas wanted to know was which side of the river were they on. When I told them, they pulled up the log bridge to try to keep them on the other side, away from the village. In fact, they're the size of small dogs and quite harmless.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Chillin' in the City of Trees
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I think the aliens were phuckin' with you.
It would be really cool to throw a rock into another dimension.
Whoa. Lookout, Ya'll!!!
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Looks like the OPer has been hypnotized into another trance by Big Foot as he has not posted in 2 days. I wonder if the Sasquash experiment with humans like the Aliens do? The worst part is that neither of them write or call, they leave you feeling so used! And sore….
Prod.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Prod, he's been posting, he just changed his account name to 'bmacd' and
that's who I've been trading posts with.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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thanks for the permisson to think as one will, healye. I am certain many are relieved by your generosity.
You're welcome.
A fine example of a fanatic at work, supressing ideas and obvious indicators of an interesting mystery.
Au contraire - I'm all about ideas! It's bad interpretations of data and even worse conclusions parading as pseudo-science I have a problem with.
A mystery he clearly finds intolerable.
Ray, I love a good mystery - hell, the universe is a mystery, String Theory is a mystery. Clearly it's you, the OP, and other monster, ghost, and alien mystery afficianodos who cannot tolerate the yawning evidentiary chasm between the dubiousness of the 'data' and the bold assertion bigfoot exists.
The concept of proof was brought by him, for the sole purpose of denying it...
Huh? Science brought the concept and burden of proof, not me. I'm simply attempting to point out that nothing about the sum total of a hundred years of 'evidence' supports the conclusion and assertion that bigfoot exists.
I think there is no way you can suck it up and do that for even two nights
Look, I live in what's claimed to be a hotbed of bigfoot encounters. I climb in the heart of the rugged Columbia River Gorge within a triangle formed by Mt. Hood, Mt. St. Helens, and Mt. Adams. It's a mere stone's throw from the Pacific Crest trail and a place where Mountain Goats, Bears, Bobcats, Cougars, Deer, whole herds of Elk, and all manner of other creatures have always sauntered down deep, well-worn tracks to access a slough and islands on the the Columbia River which lays at the base of our cliff. They do so on a regular seasonal basis directly under and in plain sight of us while we're climbing. I've spent weeks of whole nights replacing anchors out there when the heat was just too much for doing it during the day. Credible bigfoot sightings or indicators to date? Zero. I also monitor the Peregrines out there and work with a WDFW Raptor biologist who has ranged deep into bigfoot country on a daily basis for forty years. Credible bigfoot sightings and indicators by him? Zero.
Faith is neither data nor evidence and the leaping conclusions and assertions bigfoot exists are ones of belief, not science. Again, I'm all for mysteries, but not assertions of fact when no evidence supports them. If anything, it's folks like you who seem intent on killing a good mystery by asserting that unexplained phenomena are not a mystery at all, but are instead 'evidence' of bigfoot.
Carry on, I've said my piece...
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I had an unusual "invisible eyes" kind of thing happen once to me. I spend a lot of time alone in bigfoot country, like I say above (well, less now cause I'm more focused on climbing). I was once in the Columbia River Gorge at a secret hotsprings. This was about 25-30 years ago, prime bigfoot country for sure. I was so relaxed and content in the hot water, all alone: salmon were 30 feet away jumping up the 10' high waterfall of the nearby stream. Watching the big 2' long Chinook salmon jump 5 times their length through the air is a remarkable natural event, and I was contentedly watching them do this as the sun dipped below the horizon. It got dark fast and I had about a mile of faint, barely passable trail to hike out in the woods. No headlamp. It's amazing how many times I've wound up in the dark in strange and dangerous places without one....anyway. Soon, it's pitch dark. No moon, no light except some faint stars. I slowly start picking my way through the forest and noticed that there are what appears to be green glowing phosphoresence light floating in the air. I have not smoked anything nor drank anything. They were floating, swear to God. In the air.
This, I saw with my own eyes. FACT!
In short order, as I try and make my way back, I am unable to walk upright as I keep hitting crap like branches and losing the trail and slowly and painfully backtracking. This is not a place to be losing the trail btw. You are never more alone than when you are behind the 8 ball all alone in the woods at a time or place you shouldn't be alone or without equipment. (it's a real "alive" feeling though!) So I finally drop to my hands and knees to crawl out, thinking I could feel with my hands where the compressed dirt and less vegetation of the trail is....within a few seconds my hand had actually touched one of the floating green lights....I recoiled in immediate horror and fear as it was soft, spongy, moving .... AND ALIVE! It moved in fear and horror at my touch as well (OK, that's what I was thinking anyway). Soon my quest to get out of the woods was relegated to backseat status as I groped blindly around on the ground and explore my new found green glowing friends. I want to learn first of all if they will hurt me. They don't, and I act in kind.
I soon learn that they were some sort of grubs. Hundreds of them. I tried to gather some up to use as a make shift green lantern, but they were more of a pain to carry for the light they provided so I gently put them to the side of the trail and continued on, brushing the odd few on the trail to the side so I wouldn't crush them on my journey.
In the ensuing years, I have been on that exact trail and tried to hit it at dark (with a light to make the hike less painful) and looked for my friends many many times...and have never seen them again. I must have caught the larvae stage (the immature stages of an insect species that metamorphosis's) just right, perhaps this is a single night each year event. I was there for this single moment in time, a special and rare event which I alone may have witnessed. Who can say for sure.
Now, I've seen a lot of strange sh#t in the woods, I'm not saying that everything is known as the more time you are out there the more you KNOW that isn't the case: but sometimes further exploration gets a rational explanation not apparent at first. I'm not suggesting that anyone's experience isn't real, for they are, as was the floating in air green phosphorescence for me.
I have also been to the valley in Nepal where the last known Yeti attack occurred on a young girl. The Sherpas believe that attack is real. There was a real attack of some sort. I have discussed this attack over tea with folks who were there. Yet, no one really saw a "Yeti" once you pin them down. They "heard" things, they "saw" results.....I have suspicions that there are explanations which would make sense to us for the same reason Jan so capably explains above. Reasons and explanations which would not have anything to do with a hairy ape like being. The most spectacular thing I saw was the Nepal national bird, a Impeyen pheasant that was a shockingly bright neon blue and green. I was unable to get a picture that looks unlike branches and brush despite clearly seeing it with my own eyes and I stalked it for quite some time. Here's someone elses picture off the internet.
It looked better in person.
But I am open to the fact that bigfoot or aliens exist, and that they may be in a totally different physically world than our senses can experience. I'd like to see the posters on this thread "continue allowing this thread to function as data collection" as Ray suggests.
as data collection,
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pitonslammer
Big Wall climber
Piton Land
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Himalayan black bears can walk on their hind feet easily. They also will kill animals by breaking their necks. They would likely prefer certain parts due to the fact that meat is not their food of choice. They are aggressive towards humans.
Snow leapords will attack livestock from what I have heard. They can do amazing things with their grace.
Cougars follow humans all the time. If you hike enough in the snow this becomes obvious.
Many animals will bed down with you to avoid being attacked, as the attackers don't like human smells. Amost every night I've spent outside I've heard noises. Many of them weird noises, I used to think this may have been bigfoot till I learned more about animals and the sounds they make.
Smells, many plants stink, many animals stink. Fungus stinks and is everywhere.
Fungus can glow in the dark. Fungus is everywhere.
Animals make weird noises. Trees and bushes make wierd noises.
Oh and Squirrals will throw stuff at you. I've seen it done and had it happen. I'm sure others here have seen this happen too. It is normal behavior for them.
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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I have hijacked my own thread inadvertently. This isn't about proof
Bravo Ray Olson ...
So ...
Do you think you have had a bigfoot encounter ? That is the question.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Off topic, but as bigfoot has been seen in this drainage above Estacada area in Oregon multiple times by multiple witnesses perhaps as much or more as anywhere in the US......
In 1967, my family was living further down the Clackamas River drainage next to the river in the Fish Creek campground. That is not to say we were homeless, for in fact we were loved and we did have a home which was small, portable, and had canvas roof and walls. We were in between wooden houses lets say. One day, my brothers and I were spending the day hiking up a small creek which fed into the Clackamas. Remember, this is before God invented gameboys or any electronic devices (well, anything that we could afford anyway). and this is what boys, who are genetically bred to be budding naturalists, do. Daily. Or fish. We're way the hell up the creek when one of us had the good fortune to spot a Red Frog. As we had done what I later determined to be a dangerous free solo to get here, (if our mom only knew) we may have been the first humans to ever stand there. Now, even young or in the 5th grade like I was, we all knew that there were no frogs known to exist in the North American continent which were bright Red in color, and this one was totally and 100 percent bright red. We knew of the poisonous bright red ones in the Amazon. With some trepidation as this wasn't like any of the hundreds of common Leopard frogs we'd caught before, and knowing the real possibility that it may be deadly poisonous and immediately kill whomever just touched it first, there was a short pause before the game was on and in short order the frog was captured for closer examination. Therein lies the crux of the issue. I wanted to haul the poor hapless creature back to civilization and share the discovery with the world. Who knew what other new secrets or knowledge this new discovery would unveil once it was studied by scientists? My older brother, then a 6th grader, said NO. The frog may be one of only a few that only exist in that very location where we are standing, we had no way to determine if it was true he suggested. If we remove it from it's natural habitat, we may disrupt the space time continuum - or something along those lines, wherein the only breeding pair may not be able to breed any more red frogs ever. Our removal may exterminate a budding new species. At the end of the day, after a long heated discussion where we both pitched out views more than once, his view won for this issue and the frog was left in situ. Red Frogs as a species (I'm excluding the Northern Red-legged Frog which is native to the West Coast, and in fact, this may have only been a genetic variation that was only much redder than other Red-legs) have not been found in the North American continent yet, although there are a few of us who know for a fact otherwise. However, my point is that it shows a basic difference in my brother and I that exists to this day. I wanted to share the frogs discovery with the world for the benefit of all, he didn't. It further examines the idea that there is possibly an entirely new species, living nearly right under the noses of a million people.
Jut last month I asked my older brother, who is a biologist and does that work for a living, if he remembered the Red Frog. He said that he absolutely still does, and in between gigs, had gone back solo into the deep woods to the creek where we had found it, without navigating the class 5 cliff solo of course (nobody is that stupid unless you're a kid) to search for the creature to no avail. He has looked either for a description in a scientific journal or for the species itself, all of his life and seen no mention of any such thing. Again, he works outside as a biologist as a career and is more of an outdoorsman than anyone I know. Even his free time or when he is layed off is close to exclusively filled with backpacking and long cross country skiing trips.
He has seen no evidence of bigfoot that I know of either.
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pitonslammer
Big Wall climber
Piton Land
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There is lots of varition in the Northern red legged frog. That would be a genetic trait that doesn't occur as much because the red ones are breeding with more brownish ones. You could probably breed some really red ones if you wanted to in captivity.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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I think Jan is on to something. Think about it, Jan is wandering around and the Sherpas say Yetis don't like her. There can only be one reason: they are gay. That would explain why there are so few. I mean, if I was a yeti and saw Jan, I would mosey on over and throw a few lines her way.
Like "once you've gone hairy, all others are scary" or "you know what bigfeet mean?".
It would also explain why they are so light footed. Maybe a little too much air in their Nikes?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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This isn't about proof
Exactly, and it's not about science unless and until you actually adopt and employ scientific methods (from Wikipedia).
Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]
Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many independently-derived hypotheses together in a coherent, supportive structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.
Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process be objective to reduce biased interpretations of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.
P.S. Just posted a link to this thread over on CascadeClimbers.com which is the climbing forum for Sasquatch country. The members of that forum have ranged over every part of the PNW and B.C.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I spent some time in Northern Pakistan, but only got one photo of the elusive yeti:
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General Ripper
climber
GnarthWest
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Those "Bigfoot sounds" were probably elk bugaling.
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Nibs
Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
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“The old native american folklore is probably one of the most interesting things to me.”
Exactly. I had expected our tribal liaison to say it was a bunch of white man hooey. Instead it was discussed as accepted fact. Now they did have disparaging remarks for some of the supposed evidence and “researchers” that visit the res…but that is a longer story.
Embrace the mysteries. For example, that feeling one gets that they are being watched. Sometimes you are. I have and I know others have too. For example a friend recently, Sunday morning walking the yard with his mug of coffee gets That feeling and the hair on the back of his neck rises, turns to his left and a mountain lion crouched watching him from about 50 ft away…now physically explain to me how he felt the presence of that animal before he saw it? (he saw it without seeing it eventually the brain processed the observation w/o saying "BIG CAT!"– perhaps, perhaps not; that part of the yard is not visible from the porch).
Embrace the mysteries – why do we humans seem to require or need absolutes? Start with “what is consciousness?” and work forward. Good luck with that. I don’t care whether Bigfoot exists or not, but I do like the remote possibility.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Embrace the mysteries – why do we humans seem to require or need absolutes?
I agree. Instead of making up stuff to explain inconclusive data folks should just embrace mystery of the fact they experienced something they can't explain.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
صَخْرَه&
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Word, HealyJe.
Let's see one........Simple request, for a specimen of ANY other species.
Cough it up, bitch!
Dig it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dig it.
How? You got some kind of trans-dimensional shovel?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Instead of making up stuff to explain inconclusive data folks should just embrace mystery of the fact they experienced something they can't explain.
Bingo!!!
however, then most of us immediately want to try and explain it:-) Which leads to threads like this unless it's you of course LOL!
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