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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 20, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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What comes into our minds when we think about God,
is the most important thing about us.
-A. W. Tozer
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 20, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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Dr. F wrote:
One last blast on Largo's contention of my closed mindedness
I never said that if you do Zen Meditation the right way, or long enough, that you can't reach deep states of nothingness or anything else.
Maybe they are enlightened, but that raises a different question, what is enlightenment? Its not oneness with God, or escape from humanness. They are still human, they still can't explain God outside a mental grasp of it inside their head.
--
I gave you an opportunity to show your so-called open mindedness by asking an honest question about anything that you don't know, but want to know. The offer stands for Fructose as well. I don't offer to answer the questions - not my job and I probably couldn't anyhow - but I'd like to see the questions, the honest questions that you have about what we all face; who we are, what is this life, where are we going. Such questions prove an open mind.
Answering your own "question," as you did above, with catagorical certainty, is not the fruit of an inquisitive, exploring, adventurous mind, rather the cognitive detritus of a mind that has decided, absolutely, on how things are, for all mankind, now and forever, per spiritual concerns. It's a typical reaction known in psychology as "universalizing," whereby, as Karl pointed out, you base all of reality, for all mankind, upon your own experiences. Once this gets started, you'll just circle the same wagon forever. And needlessly. A few questions might bust you out of it, but of course we'll never see those questions.
You went on to say: "So your contention, does not hold water."
Kindly outline my "contention," based on what I have written.
Lastly, while Tony seems interesting enough, this business about a 9/11 conspiracy is impossible, totally. You know why? It goes back to an old saw from Ben Franklin: "Two can keep a secret, if one of them is dead." The chances of 50 or more folks keeping a huge internationl crime a secret, in modern government, is a stretch on credulity, to say the least. To most psychologists, "conspiracy obsession" (of the type David G. has) and personality disorders go hand in hand.
The guy (David G.) purporting all of this was a prof of mine for many years in grad school. He is a perfect example of sky high intelligence working against itself. A real shame.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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Largo wrote
Lastly, while Tony seems interesting enough, this business about a 9/11 conspiracy is impossible, totally. You know why? It goes back to an old saw from Ben Franklin: "Two can keep a secret, if one of them is dead." The chances of 50 or more folks keeping a huge internationl crime a secret, in modern government, is a stretch on credulity, to say the least. To most psychologists, "conspiracy obsession" (of the type David G. has) and personality disorders go hand in hand.
I don't know what happened on 9-11 except that we don't know the truth. I question your above assertion though about secrecy: Operation Northwoods was not uncovered for decades, the assassination of MLK is in question even though courts have ruled a conspiracy was in effect. Bush and crew conspired to get us into Iraq via bogus means and, like 9-11, even though many know the event is surrounded by lies, nobody official seeks the truth. Even though we know the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie, who knows how that went down and who was responsible?
Politics and religion both get warped in service of money and power. It's a scandal but there's one more important aspect that gets warped the same way...Science! Our best minds get bought into making bombs instead of serving constructive human interests and don't get me started on the politics of climate change science and how the Bush crew ignored science in favor of paid science and politicians
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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JL,
All due respect. I know it is hard to look into the rabbit hole deep and fear what you might find. But if you think people can't keep secrets, man, that just is not true. Doesn't hold up when you look into it honestly. There are many people who go to their graves without ever spilling the beans.
After WW2, finally 50 years after taking his oath, my Grandfather was finally able to talk about how he worked in intelligence in Washington DC at the Pentagon, and was involved in breaking Russian Code. He didn't breath a word until the 50 year oath was complete, then he spilled the beans to the entire family. He kept his oath to the US Government. He was very happy to finally be able to talk about it openly and honestly. A few years later he passed away.
True enough, some do spill the beans when they are old in age, when they realize it is time to clear their consciences and come clean. Also late in life, if someone doesn't like what they have to say and decide to take them out, less harm then, they lived a longer life than they probably would have and they didn't have to suffer the outfall.
This is true on so many levels, UFOs/Aliens, Assassinations of all kinds, 9-11-01, the list goes on and on.
I highly recommend to anyone to read Jesse Venturas new Book, American Conspiracies. I rate it a 10 out of 10, it is that good and that eye opening. It is very well written and footnoted. A great primer into all the big conspiracies. You will rethink many things after reading it.
American Conspiracies: Lies, Lies, and More Dirty Lies that the Government Tells Us [Hardcover], Jesse Ventura (Author), Dick Russell (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/American-Conspiracies-Dirty-Government-Tells/dp/160239802X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277066086&sr=8-1
This question is for everone who poo-poos the truth:
Are you willing to take the Red Pill and look honestly down the massive dark rabbit hole? Or you gonna turn away and stand-back from a safe comfortable distance and shout ad hominems ignorantly?
Man-up or Woman-up. Time to learn the truth.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 20, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
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Largo: Before this goes down the conspiracy rabbit hole I'd like to say that, while I can't tell for sure, you appear to be trying to have it both ways - the causal chasm on one side and a claim you aren't talking about religion or new-age conjecture on the other. Now I have to admit to being a bit dense, but what else is there? What exactly are you positing if not one of those two alternatives? Maybe you are saying it clearly and I'm just missing it, but it seems as though you've stuck a very particular pin in a very specific place and are now attempting to dance on its head.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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Received some shocking news with regard to the 9 – 11 conspiracy just this last week. This comes directly from a Senatorial assistant whom, of course, I can’t name.
I was told that Christ Jesus has returned to the earth and, in fact, has been here since 2001!
This is no joke but comes directly from Senatorial sources.
Our Lord is currently staying in Texas with the Bushes who we all know are his ardent supporters. It seems Christ and Bush manufactured the entire 9 – 11 attack as a means of mobilizing the faithful like they’ve never been mobilized before. And they, Jesus and George, still solidly support one another.
According to this new information the resulting attack against the infidel hordes of the Middle East is apparently a necessary precursor to a final Armageddon. The problem, of course, was the unexpected intrusion of the devil disguising himself as Barrack Obama. This has disrupted the plan to some degree.
My friend says that all people killed in the collapse of the towers went straight to paradise no matter if they had been good or bad, had accepted the lord or not. And this was just part of an expansive agreement between the heavenly hosts and U.S. leaders bargained for by our heroic ex president. I find this a great relief.
The Gulf oil spill is another righteous attempt on the part of the Son of Man and our beloved President Bush to bring down the devil (Barrack Obama) from his earthly throne. What is being expelled below the ocean is not oil but the slurry of hell escaping now into our own earthly realm. It is possessed of demonic evil and must not be touched or used in your car as gas or motor oil.
As it states in Revelation when the world’s seas turn black then will come the end of time.
It is true that the only way such a grand conspiracy (of love) could take place is because the lord stands so solidly behind it. Conspirators who thought they might divulge any secrets of the Lord were caused to speak in strange tongues that could not be deciphered. If you don’t think this is true take a ride in an NYC taxi and you will believe.
So take heart every one the secret is safe and our Lord is one. Yes, and I’d like to apologize for all those atheistic posts I made prior to finding my way. We all await the mid term elections and the defeat of Satan.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
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Paul, Klimmer's gonna eat this up. And if I criticize your "friend," Jan and Tony are going to call me closed-minded, narrow-minded, monophrenic (thinking in just one way). So I better not...
EDIT 4:17p Oh, boy. (Below.)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
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Gonna have to counter Paul's humor with some Truth . . .
Everyone will know when Jesus Christ returns. There will be no doubt.
The Bushes and GOD are as close as Earth and the edge of the Universe. Bush is deluded.
http://kingjbible.com/mark/13.htm
Mark 13: 1-37 (KJV)
1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? 5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. 8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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"Everyone will know when Jesus Christ returns."
He never ever left to begin with.
His teachings are non different from his body. They are transcendental.
If you are following his teachings then Jesus Christ has never ever left.
If you are under illusion that the body of Jesus Christ and his spirit are different then nothing can be done for you as you have not yet learned the fundamental basic spiritual knowledge.
You are worshiping the teachings of Jesus Christ and saying he left is very poor fund of knowledge.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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Now Dr. F, have you not repeatedly said, in no certain terms, that anyone, throughout time and space, who claims to know a single thing about God, is entirely wrong and deluded? Why jump on my case for point this out? If this is mistaken, who do you consider to know anything, at all, about spiritual realities? Anyone, ever, throughout history?
You also seem to be insising that I have not given you the opportunity to ask a qustion, which is the earmark of an open mind. So here it is again:
I cordially invite you to show your open mindedness by asking an honest question about anything that you don't know, but want to know. I am not qualified to answer or even try to answer, but I am very curious to know what your questions are, should you have any.
What's more, the thinking on this thread - pardon me for using scholastic jargon - is mainly issuing from two camps: Positivism, which claims that the scientific method is the best approach to uncovering the nature of reality ("a recurrent theme in the history of western thought from the Ancient Greeks to the present day"), and on the other end, consisting of windy, New Age fluff about angels and shite. As if thse were the only two point of view out there.
The entire idea that measuring (science) is the only real and vigorous truth finding methodology is as tired an idea as believing the Tower of Babel was an actual physical structure and that Noah's Arc was so many cubits long.
What's more, I got blasted for saying this:
Answering your own "question," as you did above, with catagorical certainty, is not the fruit of an inquisitive, exploring, adventurous mind, rather the cognitive detritus of a mind that has decided, absolutely, on how things are, for all mankind, now and forever, per spiritual concerns. It's a typical reaction known in psychology as "universalizing," whereby, as Karl pointed out, you base all of reality, for all mankind, upon your own experiences. Once this gets started, you'll just circle the same wagon forever. And needlessly. A few questions might bust you out of it, but of course we'll never see those questions.
Now if I was to state that I catagorically KNEW, with absolute certainty, the absolute truth about everyone who has ever lived per spirituality, would that position be consider arrogant and insulting? Or am I arrogant and insulting for suggesting that this catgagorical knowing is in fact open for debate. And I'm not going to get deadly serious with anything on this thread - especially the boring Prussian, Kant, who I respect but who's basic notions about consciousness I don't agre with.
But it's good to see things heating up. Now we might see some movement in positions and shifts in perspective. And it's all about pattern interrupts.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
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"The offer stands for Fructose as well... I'd like to see the questions, the honest questions that you have about what we all face; who we are, what is this life, where are we going."
Sorry, Largo, I missed this earlier. I have lots of questions. It's what drew me to these fields a long time ago. Still does. One question I have is how the brain circuitry does what it does (a) to give us the so-called "central theater" and/or (b) to give us intention.
More generally, other questions I have inspired me to read John Brockman's books: What Is Your Dangerous Idea? also What have You Changed Your Mind About?
Honest questions I have: How serious is this Peak Oil deal? If it is as serious as some claim, how's humanity going to fare in the post Peak Oil days? How will it handle a reduced carrying capacity for the planet from 6.5 billion to 1-2 billion? During this transition, no doubt humans will adapt but what will be the quality of life for the average Joe both during the transition and afterwards?
Another question: The strength of our species is determined in large part by the strength of our gene pool. What if anything are we doing nowadays to weaken our gene pool? In the olden days, hand to hand combat and tribal alpha males went a long ways to honing the strength of our community gene pools. These are no longer in place in our metropolitan if not global environments. Again, might this be weakening our gene pool long term, say measured in units of 10 generations, and in what ways?
Nowadays, what honing mechanisms if any are strengthening, sharpening, our gene pool? Because of entropy, everything runs down, rusts, dulls, smooths out. So it's a serious issue, a serious question. If our gene pool has no honing mechanisms, it's going to weaken, then what?
Still in regard to genetics: Is cloning, generally speaking, really so dangerous an idea or practice it should be taboo across the board on all sides? Or might the subject be more complex, e.g., problematic along 100 ways yet beneficial along 200 or 1000 ways, thus deserving some attention in practice?
Like Carl Sagan and millions of others, I'd like to know if we're the only radio species in the Milky Way. (Radio species, mind you, not bacteria or simple eukaryotes or vegetable species or big beast species.) Sometimes I lapse into thinking that perhaps we are, but if not, I'd like to know how these other intellient radio-level species made it through their so-called "technological adolescence" esp bringing with them through the advance their innate genetic variation and diversity. That's another huge question.
Of course I'd like to have a crystal ball of perfect truth and a crystal ball of perfect future. So I could know. Then my life would be complete. At least complete enough.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
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Boy go on a hike and come back and the Klimeratti conspiracists have hijacked!
A little altitude and a long walk works wonders for coalescing thought into words.
On the "Nature of God";
Christians, Jews and for that matter Muslims don't seem to put a lot into this at least in their primary writings. Job gets into it but from an extremely anthropomorphized perspective. The Koran has God as Vengeful warlord (more a reflection on the cult founder) Jewish tradition a tribal Father figure, and Christianity something far more complex, but still personal and a bit anthropomorphic. Only John's gospel seems to get into the "nature" of God and only in some fairly esoteric terms. Yeah, there's a rich tradition of parsing these ideas from theologians and philosophers, but not much in the primary writings like Tao or Buddhist original documents that are much more concerned with the nature of the universe issues and a bit less on the nuts and bolts of daily life compared to say the Bible.
Christian thought is far more illuminating (and essentially correct) about the nature of man. The notion of the imperfect-ability and innate corruption of man ( the concept of original sin)sticks in the craw for many but is an essentially correct description of the human condition and the best starting point for establishing theorys social order. Now the Greeks had something similar with the whole Huburis, Nemisis thing but both provided the foundation for the concept of indevidual rights and limitations on government. (No Greeks/Christianity, No modern Democracy)
Get away from that notion of imperfect-ability and you get Fascism, Communism and the progressive movement. All complete failures because they fly in the face of the reality of the human condition.
Now here's a question for the mechanistic rationalists;
Where in the evolutionary goo between your ears resides beauty?
Now Beauty is a bit like pornography, everyone recognizes it when they see it. Just about every other human emotion can be rationalized in mechanistic terms but what and more seminaly WHY is there beauty?
From today's hike
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
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Fructos wrote:
(a) to give us the so-called "central theater"
-
Shite. That's the million dollar question, I'm thinking. Great one. Let's dig into it.
I gotta a date so I have to wait to get after this but I relish the chance to explore it from my perspective.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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TGT- Welcome to the tenth grade. Nice pictures, tho.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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√Christianity is nothing if not Hellenized Judaism. As a result it was relatively easy for Aquinas to put Aristotle and St. Paul in bed together. Though I can’t imagine Aristotle having liked that.
The question of beauty is really wonderful. I like what Victor Cousin said: “… the beautiful cannot be the way to what is useful or to what is good: it leads only to itself.
Or Neitzsche’s … for it is only as an aesthetic experience that existence and the world are eternally justified.”
But more simply put by someone of limitless intelligence: “Beauty is that which pleases.”
Human beings take delight in their senses and the “pleasing of their senses.”
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jstan
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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"The entire idea that measuring (science) is the only real and vigorous truth finding methodology "
John I continue to have difficulty interpreting that which you write.
1. First of all "truth" is a misleading word. When you say "truth" people generally imagine something that is known absolutely. Such are in very short supply and it is not useful to phrase our goal in terms of a near null set. Better to say we search for increasingly better ways to predict, in a given situation, what the natural and material world will be or will do. Inevitably this is an iterative/contnuing process. We never get to go home saying, "Yes. Finally I have the answer. We go home with answers that are better than the one we had yesterday and we have done tests that show just how much better it is.
2. I don't remember anyone claiming studies requiring quantification and testing of all hypotheses is the ONLY method of value. So I am, here also, standing on one leg and am off balance trying to evaluate your contribution.
A lot of people, myself included, are convinced we know of nothing better( see above) and specifically that methods wherein we just make up answers without any attempt to test them, are definitely inferior. Historically some other techniques are yielding today exactly the same results they yielded millennia ago and with an unchanged dataset to support it. None.
You are overstating rather seriously on both these points.
3. When we use a word in an unusual or specific context we need to look at the need to define it.
What is a real truth finding methodology? You know what you mean but if I don't know what you mean, we have no basis for discussion. This happens a lot.
To one degree or another we all do it and to the same degree we all lose because of it.
In school I was immensely fortunate in having a superb teacher for plane geometry. If our efforts are going to allow our discussions to put us in a place different from that which we occupied at the start, we must needs clearly understand the meanng of each axiom, each theorem, and even each word we have used.
Philosophical discussions are, if anything, even more seriously constrained in this regard than are proofs in plane geometry.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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HF
Explain the mechanistic origin of beauty
Or shut up!
Paul.
That's a bit like describing a Mercedes as a Germanified oxcart.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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You should read it again when you've had less to drink.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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TGT
I read your post and thought the (beauty question) was an intelligent question.
Here's another example of the Corn Nut trying to put someone into a box again and at the same time being an assh'ole again which he no doubt is.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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TGT wrote-
"Christian thought is far more illuminating (and essentially correct) about the nature of man. The notion of the imperfect-ability and innate corruption of man ( the concept of original sin)sticks in the craw for many but is an essentially correct description of the human condition and the best starting point for establishing theorys social order."
HFCS wrote-
"TGT- Welcome to the tenth grade..."
I rest my case. No, I better explain it: Original Sin (aka the Fall) is the biggest load of bronze age ignorance ever. Great mythology, sure, but tragic as an accurate and valid explanation for much. Including dystropy (bad turn events in the lives of living things), otherwise evil.
No living thing, including H. sapiens, is innately corrupt. Certainly not made that way as a result of any Original Sin and Divine Punishment. This is bronze age ignorance.
No "corruption" on a species-wide level, therefore nothing that needs forgiving on a species wide level. Wake up. Take some comparative religious studies courses. Upgrade your models for how the world works and how life works.
My earlier post didn't reference the beauty issue at all, indeed it complimented your pictures.
As far as beauty goes, nature, evolution and natural selection did a good job with it. Agreed.
TGT wrote-
"Explain the mechanistic origin of beauty..."
That's easy. Evolution. The evolutionary process is mechanistic. That's an explanation at one level. At another. We have circuitry that's dedicated to attraction and repulsion. It is a must. A must for living things. Without it, ancient forebears of every species would've been up the creek without a paddle. And thus doomed. Beauty is an expression, otherwise perception, of attraction.
Your welcome.
P.S. Maybe some further soul searching would be helpful. Maybe you are one of those who "cannot stand the idea" that appreciation of shapes (beauty) or appreciation of beauty or perception of beauty is an evolved function. (Again, designed by evolution for attraction.) If that is the case perhaps you should use your limited time, energy and resources trying to adapt to the understanding of this evolved functionality instead of trying to fight it.
Here, perhaps this beauty deserves another look:
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