Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)

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Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 20, 2010 - 01:23am PT
Religious people, in different terms, supernaturalists, bent on preservation or whatever choose to fight this. Science education enlightens. It points to a mechanistic universe as surely as it points to biotic evolution.

What some fail to grasp or perhaps better fail to respect is that when it comes to facts, some beliefs are correct in regard to how the world works, some are incorrect.


The "enlightened" interpretation that religion inherently appeals to the backward or simpleminded.....thank heaven that explanation has no proponents among our friends on this forum. But should we dismiss it out of hand? Open-mindedness to rational inquiry is historically linked with atheists and agnostics, forget Newton, Kepler, Boyle,Faraday, Pasteur,Heisenberg, Lemaitre etc. Certainly, when we consider errors, offenses, immorality and mistaken beliefs.... can't we just assume the religious are more reckless, rascist, reactionary, superstitious and so on....and we should associate those parties with simplistic or closed-minded approaches to objective inquiry..

Pronouncements like this possess a circularity that makes them tedious to counter

"We are fabulous. We are liberated. We are superior. We are the most enlightened apes in all the jungle! We believe it......so it must be true!"

Let's face it - if we accept the elitist dictum that all intelligent and informed people share certain beliefs, questioning those beliefs places dissenters substantially outside the community of sensible and compassionate human beings..... that's one gaping fallacy in atheist polemics.

Similarly, the elitist premise that souls, innocent or not, who fail to accept Christ inherit an eternal lake of fire....while the
"saved" become heir to Grace and Heaven on the merits of ...faith, with or without good works....and by praising God with their lips .....is an irreconcilable rent in the fabric of Christian dogma.
WBraun

climber
Jun 20, 2010 - 01:33am PT
paul roehl

Just remember

I didn't use the word "if"

You people always use "maybe, if, it could be.

Always trying to guess everything out of your own limited mind.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 20, 2010 - 01:50am PT
Similarly, the elitist premise that souls, innocent or not, who fail to accept Christ inherit an eternal lake of fire....while the "saved" become heir to Grace and Heaven on the merits of ...faith, with or without good works....and by praising God with their lips .....is an irreconcilable rent in the fabric of Christian dogma.
There is a gaping flaw in all religions. That is, they are all human constructs, and were invented (revealed, if you so believe) on a specified date. Judaism around 1,400 BCE (the time of Abram/Abraham, anyway), Christianism around 30 CE, Islamism 632 CE, Sikhism in the 15th century CE, and Mormonism around 1840 CE.

Whichever system you adhere to, it by definition excludes all humans who died before that religion started. (The Mormons have a transparently clumsy work-around for this one.) Why should someone be denied salvation just because he/she died before the founder of the one true religion got around to showing up? Millions if not billions of humans are thereby arbitrarily excluded from being saved.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 20, 2010 - 02:02am PT
Whichever system you adhere to, it by definition excludes all humans who died before that religion started. (The Mormons have a transparently clumsy work-around for this one.) Why should someone be denied salvation just because he/she died before the founder of the one true religion got around to showing up? Millions if not billions of humans are thereby arbitrarily excluded from being saved.


I may have missed the nuance of your reference to Mormons, Anders....but there in no eternal burning in lake of fire, no "unsaved souls" in the dogma of that particular faith.
WBraun

climber
Jun 20, 2010 - 02:07am PT
"There is a gaping flaw in all religions."

You're the ones that keep talking about religion.

I'm not.

You are the gaping flaw yourselves ......
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 20, 2010 - 02:16am PT
In Mormon theology, what happens to the souls of those who died before Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, etc? They were never exposed to his belief system, and were never Mormons. Never could have been. All religions say that only true believers benefit in the hereafter. Those who consciously choose to believe something else, or not believe at all, are really in for it, of course. But what of those who never heard of the faith, or were born before it was invented? What happens to them?

Dante had an interesting solution to this one, building on the work of other Christian theologians.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 20, 2010 - 02:26am PT

In Mormon theology, what happens to the souls of those who died before Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, etc?


In Mormon theology, all souls enter one of the three levels of Heaven.

Hell and it's fire being metaphor and figurative speech for guilt and agony brought about by wrongdoing.
TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Jun 20, 2010 - 02:36am PT
FWIW,

Jennie- "An elitist premise that souls, innocent or not...who fail to except Christ, inherit an eternal lake of fire..."

I don't consider myself a member of any elite or an "elitist" but I have been called worse so...

Souls(innocent or not)who have not reached the age of accountability, do not get banished from Gods presence. What is the age of accountability you may ask? No one really knows, but sometime after being capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong, and being able to make a firm decision. Probably between puberty and adulthood. Probably different for each individual.

Some handicapped people never reach that ability.

And keep in mind that Jesus considers that after that age of accountability that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!"

Jennie- "faith, with or without, good works..."

Not so!!

Jesus states that if it is truly faith, then good works will follow! If a Christian isn't walking in good works there is something wrong.

And it is on the "merits" of faith, and repenting and turning from sin! Being truly remorseful!

Continually turning from sin.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 20, 2010 - 02:41am PT
Perhaps I'll aspire to being a virtuous pagan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuous_pagan
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 20, 2010 - 02:58am PT
I don't consider myself a member of any elite or an "elitist" but I have been called worse so...


TripL7, I wasn't intimating reference to you, personally, as eltist in the practice of your faith. Some warrant that title, some do not.

Thanks for the reassurance that some Christians still esteem good works as consequence and sequel to faith.

I appreciate your post
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 20, 2010 - 03:25am PT
"...He also felt that Old Norse mythology provided a model for what one might call "virtuous paganism," which was heathen; conscious of its own inadequacy, and so ripe for conversion; but not yet sunk into despair and disillusionment like so much of 20th century post-Christian literature; a mythology which was in its way light-hearted."


Wondering if valkyries might wing you to Valhalla swifter than angels, Anders?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 20, 2010 - 04:30am PT
It's a sad day when the Christian fundamentalists have managed to convince a sensible and humanistic person like Anders that all Christians, let alone all religions, believe that those who went before their religion was founded, are condemned.

The original Christians taught no such thing and the majority of churches today also do not. Unfortunately the most vocal and political of the Christians in America do so, and thereby give Christianity a bad name which is then applied to all religions by inference.

It was Martin Luther, who in protest against the corrupt sale of indulgences by the Catholic Church came up with the idea of being saved by faith alone. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches who represent way over half the Christians on this planet, promptly declared that a heresy as have numerous others ranging from Episcopalians to Quakers to Mormons to Unitarians to name a few.

The notion that what a person believes about Jesus is more important than the actual teachings of Jesus about how to live one's life, is the logical extension of this heresy and what we hear so much of on this thread.

Nobody is quoting Jesus when he said .....you can heal and prophesy and have faith that moves mountains but unless you do the will of our Father in heaven, I will say I never knew you...... those who do the will of my Father in heaven give food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, aid to orphans and widows, visit the sick and those in prison.

No dogma, no formulas, no rituals, no condemnation based on doctrine, just good works.

TripL7

Trad climber
san diego
Jun 20, 2010 - 04:55am PT
Jan- "The Christian Fundamentalist...believe that those who went before their religion was founded, are condemned."

Who teaches, and believes this???

I have never even heard it before, let alone believe it, and in my 50+ years as a Christian, have never heard of anyone else preaching, or believing it!

It is this type of here say, that is down right lies, set forth to make Jesus, and His followers look bad!

PATHETIC!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 20, 2010 - 05:33am PT
So you're telling me that every Hindu and Buddhist and practitioner of a non Hebrew religion before the birth of Jesus is saved?

If that's the case what about the current practitioners of those religions who have never been exposed to Christianity?

And if that's the case, then why are you so concerned about the non Christians on this thread?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jun 20, 2010 - 09:35am PT
forgive the long post--was taken out to a chinese seafood orgy last night. i feel like the python who swallowed a deer and now must lie on the jungle floor for about a month before being able to crawl.

largo: you strike me as being a bit rigid yourself. will you admit to that? the difference between you and everyone else on here, myself included, is that you're being coy about something you're not putting out on the table. rather you seem to be playing a zazen game with us, trick questions and the like and plenty of ad hominem criticism of attitude. zazen is like hypnotism. if you're not willing, it won't work. don't try to make unwilling disciples out of us.

werner: all-attractive? there's another interpretation of the same data. the believer chants "i believe" continuously in order to convince himself. and i love your use of the word "escape". if god really were that attractive, people wouldn't even be dreaming of that. what you're describing is one will versus another, and it doesn't surprise me that there is such futile obsession with this abstract "will" of god.

tripl: that professor i referred to is a doctorate-level published writer, up on all the scholarship. he said he's one of a rather small group suggesting jesus never existed. he's at a small women's college near cornell and is active with the center for inquiry.

as i said, i think the greatest argument against jesus is jesus himself, whether he existed or not, in all that comes to us informationwise, from whatever source. were it not for the imperative of resurrection, he would not be taken seriously. he is a burden to humanity, and all of us outside his thrall have become quite suspicious of what he's done and continues to do to us.

jennie: glad you recognize the elitist instinct of the human race. if you look further, i think you'll recognize it all over the natural world as well. it has to do with survival. now look at the development of the jewish myth, and the frosting jesus puts on that cake. elitism every inch of the way: god's chosen people, always winning out over their enemies (with a few embarrassing lapses), jesus "saving" only those willing to ride his coattails. you can't get away from it.

btw, where did that quote about old norse mythology come from?

skully: good credo, but you let the cat out of the bag. you gotta work it into titheing first.

brokedown: i had avoided the da vinci code for more than a year after it came out, but my daughter bought me a copy of a special edition for a father's day gift which sumptuously illustrates all the art and architecture referred to. yes, fascinating.

leonardo da vinci has become a key figure to me, and by no means an attractive one. i happened to visit his native village in tuscany a few years ago, where they have a couple museums devoted to him. the greatest genius you can imagine--thomas edison and michelangelo in a package. he was a "flambuoyant homosexual" and at the same time much in demand by those in political power to assist in the winning of wars.

in figuring out what really happened on 9/11, i find myself in a dark world where not very nice wizards hidden behind curtains keep the public in control by means of the furious pulling of levers. someday they will get tired.

i wound up reading all of dan brown's books--he plays with this subject quite a bit, and i suspect there may be a web of control going back to leonardo's time--others say even beyond. i find it verrrrrrry interesting that dan's next book, dealing with the masonic order, is being suppressed. if you think we live in a normal world, they wouldn't be sitting on the next book out of one of the best-selling authors in history.

interesting, tripl--you're parroting catholic theology here but in different words. or were you the catholic one? if so, they've changed the tune a bit. it used to be "age of reason", and it happened at age 7. but you must not be catholic if you don't know about those who are not saved because they were born outside of the opportunity to know christ through catholicism.

catholicism used to have that lovely place, limbo, "neither here nor there". for some reason, it always appealed to me. you didn't have to fry, you didn't have to carry huge boulders up a mountain, you didn't have to fit yourself into that boring thing called heaven. dante's vision of heaven is a great shining rose. emily dickinson refers to it:

diadems drop
and doges surrender,
silent as drops
on a disk
of snow.

emily was a great candidate for heaven, burning her life away in beautiful loneliness.

when pressed, what the priests and nuns would describe as limbo sounded a lot like the good life. maybe MH and i can go there if we're decent pagans. give me that old norse lighthearted mythology. and a valkürie--what a woman!

but see, i've had a little peep at what the afterlife is like myself. i can tell you about it. most of you aren't really interested. fructose thinks i'm nuts and the christians think the devil is dancing rings around me. mwahahahaha!

jan, that's another thing i don't like about the teachings of jesus: becoming a good works robot. to me, the fella had the most un-spiritual approach imaginable. you don't "do good works" unless you've gotten your head together to the point where you have some internal motivation to do them. of all the religions we discuss here, christianity seems the least able to get people to that point. good works are a flower of much internal construction. christianity ignores what's inside us from the get-go, teaching us first and foremost to distrust ourselves. visiting people in prison? i wouldn't recommend that unless you REALLY got your head together.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 20, 2010 - 09:46am PT
Perhaps if I meditated or were blessed with faith I could believe in a God- reason, logic and the evidence at hand take me the other way.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 20, 2010 - 10:23am PT
In Science we know #2 to be correct, (2. The universe began to exist.) We call it "The Big Bang." There was a moment when all matter, energy, space, time etc. was at an infinitely small point we call "the Point of Singularity."


Kalam Cosmological Argument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument

The Kalām cosmological argument is a variation of the cosmological argument that argues for the existence of a Sufficient Reason or First Cause for the universe. Its origins can be traced to both medieval Christian and Muslim thinkers, but most significantly to Islamic theologians of the Kalām tradition.[1] It has been revived in recent years most predominantly in the works of Christian philosopher William Lane Craig.

The argument

William Lane Craig has formulated the argument as follows:[2]

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Craig argues that the first premise is supported most strongly by intuition, but also experience. He asserts that it is "intuitively obvious," based on the "metaphysical intuition that something cannot come into being from nothing,"[3] and doubts that anyone could sincerely deny it.[4] Additionally, he claims it is affirmed by interaction with the physical world. If it were false, he states, it would be impossible to explain why things do not pop into existence uncaused.[5]

The second premise is often supported by philosophical arguments and scientific verification for the finitude of the past.[6] One philosophical argument is that the number of past events must be finite and cannot be infinite, meaning that the universe must be finite and therefore have begun to exist. This argument is established by the following syllogism:[7]

1. An actually infinite number of things cannot exist.
2. A beginningless series of events in time entails an actually infinite number of things.
3. Therefore, a beginningless series of events in time cannot exist.


One way that Craig supports the first premise is by referring to Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel, a thought experiment that shows how paradoxes and absurdities would result from an infinite number of existing things.[8] Next, after taking the second premise to be self-explanatory, he states that the universe is indistinct from a "series of events."[9] Thus, the conclusion can be read as "a beginningless universe in time cannot exist," which is equivalent to, "The universe began to exist."

Another philosophical argument for Kalām's second premise is that an infinite collection cannot be formed by subsequent addition. If events occurring one at a time cannot ever reach infinity, the past must be finite and so must the universe. The argument is formulated as such:[10]

1. The series of events in time is a collection formed by adding one number after another.
2. A collection formed by adding one member after another cannot be actually infinite.
3. Therefore, the series of events in time cannot be actually infinite.


Craig argues that premise one is confirmed by the sequential, forward movement of time.[11] Premise two is argued for by the contention that no matter how high one counts, one more number could always be counted.[12] Likewise, no matter how much time passes, one more moment could always elapse. Hence, when supplanting 'universe' for 'series of events,' the conclusion logically follows and supports the main argument's second premise.

The scientific confirmation for Kalām's second premise focuses largely on the Big Bang theory, which states that all matter and energy originated in a cosmological singularity roughly 13 billion years ago. Craig interprets the Big Bang as the temporal beginning of the universe, and discounts the Cyclic model, vacuum fluctuation models, and the Hartle-Hawking state model that would suggest otherwise.[13]

With Kalām's conclusion logically following from its premises, Craig concludes by arguing that impersonal, scientific causation exterior to the universe could not cause a finite universe. He gives the example of the temperature being below zero infinitely, and thus any water, although caused to be frozen by the subzero temperature, could not begin to freeze; it would be frozen infinitely.[14] Similarly, any condition that could cause the universe to exist would have to be infinitely, and thus the universe would also exist infinitely. The solution, Craig posits, is that the cause of the universe's beginning to exist must be a personal agent.[15] Craig has extended this argument to conclude that the cause must also be uncaused, beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, enormously powerful, and enormously intelligent.[16]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Jun 20, 2010 - 10:39am PT
I think Jan, Klimmer and Jennie oughta get together and go camping, they'd have a blast.


Tony wrote-
"jan is one wise woman. i hope fructose learns to listen to her."

I'm confused. In what area? In what way? To placate her. Not.


If she posts in a way that suggests EO Wilson or Dennett isn't a mechanist (materialist), she's going to get called out for it. Because it is bullsh#t.

If she posts that 3rd -19th century Christians weren't as much literalists or weren't as superstitious about how the world works as today's fundamentalist (literalists), she's going to get called out for it. Because that is bullsh#t, too.

No placating bs or placating appeasers. Not from me. Because modernity has supernaturalisms and superstitions at long last on the ropes and now there's no letting up. In the way of astrology, it's off to history for them. Thanks internet-driven info age. Thanks sciences.

By the way, the paranormal's been studied, birdman. The decision-making: it is as ridiculous as the supernatural. And just as disrespectful of the sciences to believe in it in the face of so much contravening evidence.

Maybe you should join them on their camping trip?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jun 20, 2010 - 11:48am PT
many who have studied the paranormal haven't reached your conclusions, bubb. you subscribe to a scientific sort of orthodoxy of your own fabrication. but you're the skeptics society guy, right? get a little skeptical about your own orthodoxy.

"disrespectful to the sciences". rofl--next thing you'll have us genuflecting to statues of einstein.

btw, jan's a scientist.

klim: that's the problem with cosmological argument--premises "supported by intuition" forwarded as "proof". the "need to prove" is the product of the "need to believe", and i think it's a lot like that car race software, "the need for speed". i'm a rockclimber. i couldn't care less about going fast.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Jun 20, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
Birdbubb wrote-
"many who have studied the paranormal haven't reached your conclusions"

Reconstruct it: Many who have studied the paranormal haven't reached science's conclusions.

Yeah, Birdbubb is one. The name for the rest: the lunatic fringe.
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