Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
|
still haven't figured out if healyje's a viking. could be ...
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
|
Viking is a Verb.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
|
to spell it out for you tripl, these people were massacred on their sacred island, preparing for a "pagan" ritual. they weren't being kicked off a gold claim. the same thing happened on a sacred island in clear lake, california, a little further south. there it was the u.s. army doing god's dirty work, and both massacres were done when the braves were away and they could decimate women, children and geezers. i don't have any particular ax to grind about this. i'm sure the indians were killing whites as well, it always happens. history is full of war, and this is really just another example of same. but your loving jesus puts you out to lunch on the whole process. jesus, unfortunately, has another side.
these killers were having what today is sometimes called a problem with their human rights record. there was polite but guarded debate about the atrocities, just as there always is today. christian churches are good at saying "naughty-naughty" about such things--up to a point. in the case of those who don't convert real well, it's often best just to genocide as many away as possible. catherine de medici did the same to the french huguenots.
when you get christians backed into a corner with such sodden hypocrisies, they like to fall back on sweet jesus's promise to bring a sword and set brother against brother and the "render unto caeser," which translates to "none of our business". your comfortable little belief system in the pie slice of the world that thinks christianity is the only important one stands squarely on the shoulders of god's dirty work.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
|
Wow!
Were it not for the fatal flaw in religion, words this good could have an effect and believers would begin to question what they were doing.
But as it is practiced, believers do not believe they have the freedom to question and criticize themselves.
If this were not true churches could be dynamic and improving entities.
As it is, growth in numbers is the only metric.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
|
Trip7 says that Jesus said that if anyone eve gets angry with anyone else, they are guilty of MURDER!
Also, trip7 says that Jesus said that if anyone lusts after a woman, well then they are guilty of RAPE.
WHERE EXACTLY, Trip7, did Jesus say the above, WHEN and WHERE did HE say them.
Not some dipshit ignorant make it up believer centuries after Jesus died, but Jesus himself.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
|
Norton- "exactly when and where..."
Mathew 5:28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a women to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
But I say to that whoever is angry with his brother without anycause will be in danger of judgment...Whoever says you fool, shall be in danger of hell." Matthew 5:22
These were all preceded by Matthew 5:21
"You have heard that it was told to those of old 'You shall not murder" Mathew 5:21
And...
"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer..." 1 John 3:15
Etc....
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
|
Largo:
Is that what you were thinking I was driving towards...
Not necessarily, I've just been trying to figure out exactly where you've been going.
...and is probably why I always liked doing first ascents.
Same here. Pretty much the only reason I climb is the chance to occasionally wander into a state where I have no idea of what's going on and have to operate in the moment and on intuition (also the reason I so dislike chalk and the climb-by-the-dots mentality if inevitably leaves in its wake).
The efforts to drive this discussion into "the cloud of unknowing," or nothingness was a bust because there are species of materialist so hard core that to them, there is no space between atoms or thoughts, no emptiness, no context or background. All is stuff, or sourced by stuff, and stuff sourced by stuff is simply latent stuff. The map is the territory, and there is no open terrain on the map. None.
That, by any definition, is a dead end per any exploration beyond or other than, stuff. I even asked the trick question: Is it possible for you to imagine a dimension, context, or empty, borderless container or (fill in the blank)that was not material, and some were not even willing to try and imagine it, even as a thought experiment. So hey, have fun with all that stuff.
Hmmmn. I guess my [very limited] perception in such matters is that on one hand you seem to be defining this rigid ruleset which by design is meant first and foremost to establish a seeming 'paradox' from which to leap into a 'third rail' discussion around the dilemma it poses. Ok, I get that, but I'm not sure that I buy the paradox beyond its utility as a thought experiment. As for your "trick question", I guess in the end it seems to me to be a case where the conjecture or 'departure' you're asking us to make is one designed to force us into attempting to conceive of non-material / metaphysical protagonists to bridge the gap created by the way the question is arrived at or structured. I'm ok with that as an experiment I guess, but as a 'real' answer to the unanswered question of how a thought arises from the material world I am completely at ease with simply not knowing.
I do empathize with your interest in exploring that gap, but I guess I'm left grappling with how one might go about that without leaping straight into the qualian or metaphysical end of the pool. Again, I'm ok with doing that for 'fun', but I personally prefer "WTF, I have no idea" as my personal answer to the underlying dilemma. Then again, as a mutt of an US / Irish dual national I am forced to cop to a certain intellectual laziness when it comes to such matters - probably a result of not enough Viking blood to tough it out when the going gets rough.
P.S. I'm in Manhattan Beach for my Dad's 90th this weekend and just returned from getting my ass handed to me attempting to surf out in front of the rental place. Surfing is not climbing. I've never had a rock attempt to leap down upon me after falling. In fact, I'm used to relaxing after falling, not having to all of sudden get real busy. Wish I did have more Viking in me as maybe then I would be getting punked so badly.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
|
So Trip7,
Jesus did NOT say those things.
Mathew claimed that Jesus said those things.
So, when I lust after my WIFE, I am guilty of RAPE.
And when I got ANGRY last week when I saw a woman beat her dog just for the "fun" of hearing it scream in agony, then I am guilty of MURDER.
Just so I got this right, according to MATTHEW I am guilty of RAPE and MURDER?
Do I have this right?
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
|
Any son of a bitch god that tells me I am guilty of RAPE and MRDER can kiss my white ass.
And anyone who believes that cruel and ignorant logic is as stupid and childish as their god of the moment.
Fuking moron to say and believe that crap about me, me a murderer and rapist.
Kiss my pagan white ass.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
|
Norton!
Jesus said guilty of adultery, not RAPE.
So I stand corrected!
But if you where to, let's say, undress a women with your eyes, MIND, and have sexual relations with her in your MIND/HEART...you are guilty dood!
He is the one who said these things, ask Him when you get the opportunity...and you will(meet Him)!
Obviously, you can not be guilty of adultery against your own wife!
What Jesus was saying is that SIN starts in your heart...
EDIT: So much ANGER dude...
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
|
777:
Norton is angry with good cause.
You are telling Norton what he can and cannot do.
That is none of your business.
Get out of his business.
Now.
If you have things you want to say, make arguments showing it is better if everyone does things certain ways. I don't rant on bolts saying Bill should not have put a bolt here. I say here is what we give up when any of us resorts to that technology.
What you did is pretty standard stuff.
You did it without thinking.
Start thinking for yourself.
It has been wrong for centuries.
It is still wrong.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
|
jstan!
I simply quoted the Bible!
Norton took offense!
I could care less what Norton, you or anyone else does!
So much ANGER...
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
|
777:
You are quoting some old text about murder and rape to us because that is what you do without thinking.
What gives you the right?
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
|
"what gives you the right?"
jstan, where have you been?
The title of this thread is "Why do so many people believe in God?"
My God is Jesus Christ!
T-Bird made a reference to me in regards to a quote that Karl made, something about Jesus and the "narrow path",,.
I got in a brief discussion about what Jesus was referring to in regards to the narrow path in response to Karl interpretation of it...hence, Norton asks where it says such and such about "Anyone who looks at a women in lust, has already committed adultery in his heart..."
Getting into someones business???
Your convicted dude.
Go ahead and SENSOR the word of God...
Edit: "And they shouted 'Crucify Him, Crucify Him'..."
Hoping to silence Him no doubt!
But .."His word is sharper than a two edged sword, peircing..." And "He is the same yesterday, today, and FOREVER."
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
|
take it easy, tripl. stand your ground, you're a brave lad.
ah, healyje--i knew there was some viking in there somewhere. next time just stride ashore with a broadsword--never mind those silly surfboards. sounds like you got some good genes from the pa unit--begorrah to him.
i think a little healthy sex life would've done big j a lot of good. the god we've been delivered is lopsidedly male and miserably repressed in so many manifestations. nature offers a beautiful balance of male and female everywhere you turn. this is being tampered with in the christian myth, and i think we pay for it in misery we've been inured to for so long we hardly know we're miserable.
|
|
Mad
Social climber
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
|
I think so many believe in God because He is your ultimate friend.....in good times and bad....in between times too.
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2010 - 12:54am PT
|
The spirit that moves in all things is like a great ocean of water. People are like fish swimming in this ocean.
The water of this ocean is a universal solvent. Materials closely related to water come out of solution, taking a form for a while and then dissolving again back into the water of the ocean. This arrangement leads to much speculation among fish about life after death.
Fish are made of the water, with temporary forms distinguished from the formless ocean. Much competition for existence arises between all these temporary forms, even though all are part of the same ocean.
Because it is everywhere, some fish take water for granted and claim it does not exist. Other fish speculate endlessly about the nature of water without noticing the ocean. When water becomes heavily contaminated within a big school, it is difficult for fish to perceive it as water and some smart fish say there is no water, just suspended material. Lone fish that have traveled far outside the school return with descriptions of pure water and are regarded as weird.
Occasionally a great white shark comes along. A big shark is also made of water, but distinguished by being much bigger and hungrier than the smaller fish, and thus feeling vastly superior to the smaller fish. The great white shark communicates authoritatively to the smaller fish, claiming to be their god and promising wonderful things if they will just obey the shark…to grow fat and healthy, have lots of healthy kids, always do everything the shark tells them to do, and they will be rewarded in the great blue sky above the water. Some fish listen carefully and capture the shark’s words and pass them onto their many children.
Those who have seen the shark are overwhelmed by such a large fish, and create a religion based upon a great benevolent shark god. Some of the smarter fish who have not seen the shark say there is no evidence proving the existence of a great god shark.
Many of those who are obsessed with the great shark have clouded their awareness and understanding of the water and the ocean. Religion is practiced by those who have lost touch with their own spirituality.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2010 - 01:01am PT
|
Nice.
What kind of fish am I? Big Eye Squirrel.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2010 - 02:01am PT
|
Nice Tom
I knew something fishy was going on
Peace
karl
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2010 - 02:16am PT
|
Regarding Largo's last post on the differences between Zen and other methods, I will agree, as I had the experience of going to a Zen master here in Okinawa with some of the unpleasant psychic/spiritual/paranormal experiences I was having, and being told they were all "makyo", illusions, and that Zen Buddhism was not a psychedelic light show.
Unfortunately this wasn't very helpful to me given what I was experiencing. I found my personality fit much better with the Indo-Tibetan system (represented by Shingon Buddhism in Japan) of gradually working through all those experiences. Once I had worked through most of them, then I could again see the Zen master's point.
If what you tried didn't suit your personality Dr. F., then try a different method, don't condemn all experiences and all paths just because you haven't found the right one yet. And if your current path is to ignore the whole thing, then admit that it's your path which works for you at this particular time, and that it may not work for other people. A common mistake we all make is assuming that the current path we're on is the right one for everyone and worse, we sometimes assume it to be the whole truth.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!