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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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Paul R. et al, this is a difficult thread to respond to because there are so many different "takes" and I wish I could respond to all, but there are just too many.
I just want to say again that I Know God is real. I have met His Son Jesus and He has changed my life, He even speaks to me. Because of this I am a Jesus follower and (to the best of my ability and His strength) a doer of His Word.
I know God is real because I have met Him. He is my Friend. He has also intervened in my life and saved me from self destruction when I was in my early 20's. He showed me He had a plan for my life and also did a miracle and cured me from smoking 3 1/2 packs of cigarettes a day when I was desperate and asked for help.
He has given me, my family and friends and even strangers I have met, many miracles of Love and Grace. He has been my best friend for 37 years. This is no religion, no denomination...this is a very deep and special Friendship.
He chose to say no to one of my "biggest" prayers. I asked God to heal my husband last year. He didn't and Dan died. The past year has been an incredible time for Lynnie. Thankfully for the first time in my life I have kept a journal of almost everyday for over a year. I can still say that my Father loves me and cares for me.
Look beyond the blue sky. There is so much you cannot see. You don't see the wind, yet it is a force in our lives and you all believe wind exists. You need an electron microscope to see the things your eye cannot. But these tiny things are real and existed even when you did not know about them or could not see them.
There are many things in our lives we cannot see. Yet we believe in them because they impact our lives. So God. There is an invisible world out there. And God Is real and in it and despite what happens, He is in Control.
If you could understand all you would be God. I think most of us know that there is much of life we can't understand. If you do not care about the idea of God, why do so many respond to God Threads? Why the vehemence, the rejection, the accusations if God is not really real or something we need to think about?
I am not a Bible Apologist like more gifted people. I am a pragmatist. I believe in it if it works. If it works it's real. God works.....Right now I am experiencing an incredibly tough, tough time in my life. Having processed Dan's death I now have some pretty heavy life issues to deal with. I have no idea how they will turn out. I have poured it out to Jesus and scarily (because I am only human) am trying to trust Him that He will take care of Lynnie.
Faith,,,,, is believing God despite your circumstance. Mine at the moment are impossible and need a miracle. One will happen. It may not be what I what. But it will be the best for Lynnie and it will continue to give me the peace and joy that is growing in my life....
Even tho I miss Dan Incredibly much....God has been there for me. I have met many of you over the past year. You have all been a Super Blessing to me and for me.....the entire climbing community. Thank you !!!
Finally, my friend Jesus is coming again soon to this planet. Look up and be prepared. Love and Peace, Lynnie
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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I find it interesting that a fair number of climbers here and elsewhere tend to consider themselves athiest or agnostic, not to say fairly irritable with Christianity. I've actually never seen a larger population of this sort except back in med school in the postgrad science/phd arena. Anybody want to take a stab why?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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That is a great and accurate question micronut. I'm thinking but have no answer. : ) Lynne
Edit: I have thought about this and would hazard a guess that @ 87.5 % of the population here are atheist or agnostic....unless there are alot of Christian "Lurkers".
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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Yeah it is kind of dense but no more so than Revelation. It's a fascinating monologue that if understood, studied, is really quite enlightening, It's an argument against sophistry and relativism in the same way the dialogue between Socrates and Protagoras was. The idea that all experience is locked in the mind of the individual is defeated and I think that's important to our understanding.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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Wow Skip, don't know what to say. It's just my life right now. Like I said...and MEAN....climbers have been a Huge part of my life this past year and have been a Considerable Blessing to me....and God will take care of All of you for takin' care of Lynnie. Love, Peace and Joy ya'll. : D
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:11pm PT
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Lynne, I think you're right about the spiritual lurkers here of all faiths.
They don't want to be shouted down by the likes of Paul and Wes.
Lurkers, speak up!!! You don't have to debate, just say you're out there.
God bless ya, Lynne!
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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I'm not surprised that the outdoor community has a fair amount of "self invented/hinduish/buddistish/naturalist" followers. Those belief systems kind of make sense to people and if not taken too seriously allow a fairly noncommital approach to life and the afterlife. I think most climber/paddler/mountain types resonate with the whole......the world is here for my enjoyment, leave no trace, get in tune with nature's vibe and don't be a bad person thing.
Something about absolute Truth scares most people though. Full accountability for one's actions and beliefs is a bit intimidating to all of us. Not to mention the idea that somebody loves us regardless of all of our fault. Throw in the fact that we are born flawed and in need of help and you get a lot of people just trying to invent something they can deal with.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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Well said, Micro. Do you guys still have that chat room?
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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What is most alarming to me, again, is how those who profess a hatred for all things Christian (nay religious) becasue of religions alleged practice of forcing its belief systems on those who chose not to believe are the very ones busting in on another individual's question in the attempt to force their position upon his conscience. I can tell you I have stuck my proboscus in a number of religions and philosophies over the years though an expert on any I am not. I can only believe the way I believe for my own personal reasons therefore I gladly discuss and debate with the willing but never force my beliefs on others. I do find the vast majority of those who refudiate other religions claiming the knowledge to do so were never ones to study the religion in hopes of finding enlightenment but rather only to look for the things they do not like. Most, if not all, Americans who claim to be "spiritual" such as Buddhist, et al I find are people who have simply taken what they like from a belief system and discarded what they felt did not apply.
Edit: I was writing while micronut was posting. He hit the nail on the head.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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Nah Bluering, it kinda fell apart, but we still get together regularly. We were just a few guys from different worldviews trying to look hard at politics from a religious viewpoint.
"It is impossible to separate one's faith from one's politic."
-Thomas Jefferson
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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I have made a similar argument up thread, but since I have been lurking of recently, I'll gladly be counted among the believers. As far as the proof of God is concerned, I have and always will feel that it is moot because God can't be proven or dis-proved. If we could break an omnipotent being down to the point that he would fit inside the construct of human understanding- neatly and succinctly at that, it would basically be an admission that what you called God was just a fabrication.
Proof or absolute proof (which can be demonstrated) is and never has been the name of the game for believers. It is about personal believe and an inner knowledge of the Truth for yourself, as Lynne alluded to. While that knowledge is absolute and unshakable, it is also incapable of being "boxed up" and mass distributed IE organized religion.
I have a slightly less nebulous conception of God than Karl but the idea he expresses about our limited knowledge being tantamount to non-existence definitely rings true. There are many things beyond our grasp to explain- whether it be to confirm or deny them. I am perfectly comfortable with that.
Just my .02 ...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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Weschrist and I go back to when I first entered the Taco...and he has been kind to me. I think we are connecting...that does not of course mean agreeing. It's difficult when you have not met someone "in the real" sometimes to understand the understated.
I must admit we did get off to a rocky start, but Weschrist has been a scholar and a "zesty" (in verbage of course) gentleman after we "figured" out who we were and what we were trying to convey.
Am enjoying the discourse with Paul R. People who think, participate and have questions are a blessing to the world at large.
Well, unless duty calls "thread-wise" lynnie is yawnnnn tired and will say howdy tomorrow. (Gotta work all weekend : ) )
Joy to the World...ALL the Boys and Girls...we need Joy, say ya'!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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Something about absolute Truth scares most people though. Full accountability for one's actions and beliefs is a bit intimidating to all of us. Not to mention the idea that somebody loves us regardless of all of our fault. Throw in the fact that we are born flawed and in need of help and you get a lot of people just trying to invent something they can deal with.
This captures most of it. I find it both amusing and poignant that some who propound to be seekers of "absolute Truth" can make a religion of antireligion.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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It's been said,
"The single greatest reason for Atheism in America today is Christians, who profess Jesus Christ with their lips, then walk out the door and deny Him with their actions."
Ouch.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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Well said, Dwain, my brother.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
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Cosmic and TGT, Nice !
Bluey, give John Boy a really big hug from his super topo auntie. : D can't wait to see him and his Mom in the real someday !
Edit: yep, micronut...but Our Ouch would never do that ...Big Smiles, : DD Lynnie
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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Paul writes
"The idea that all experience is locked in the mind of the individual is defeated and I think that's important to our understanding."
I'm a bit dense Paul. Perhaps you can explain in plainer English how, when all our perceptions and thoughts are processed by the mind (including the perception that we are touching or doing anything) that this same mind can prove anything outside of itself?
The hand might fit through a gate but not a door, but the gamma ray passes through both without a hitch. Even in a dream, the dream objects seem comparatively real to other dream objects.
John says God created the world from God's word. What are words? Vibrating Energy structured by information. (kind of like the way Science describes the world.)
Peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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I would never say art does not exist because most people are bad at it.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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John begins with " in the beginning was the Logos"
The KJV reads as "the Word" but it more properly but incompletely translates from the original as "the Reason"
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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Skip, its from the beginning of a song by DC Talk. Not a very good song, actually, but it was hinting to the fact that many modern day athiests see the "hipocricy" of Christians behaving badly as a very good reason not to believe in God. He's hinting to the fact that more Christians would do well to bear witness to the good news with their actions rather than empty words.
Not saying that poorly behaving Christians means God doesn't exist, just that many Atheists use this as a shallow attempt to "prove" such.
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