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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Aug 14, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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I'm not saying don't buy at REI, just don't go there for "expert" advice, as you're likely not to get any. I don't know what kind of mountaineering shops there are around Boston, but if there's one with a long-standing reputation that would probably be the place.
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Aug 14, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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Billygoat who needs to ask advice when trying on shoes? I expected a bit more of a do it yourself mentality around here I guess.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 14, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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Troll or not, it really doesn't matter, as someone else said above; other people can learn from this thread maybe.
I know you guys are trying to express the seriousness of the endeavor to the guy, but seriously... Some of you guys are making this sound like a close to impossible task. NOT. If he gets out and climbs every weekend, supplementing with workouts during the week, he'll have all of the basic rope skills and definitely be fit enough to do a wall in a few short months. As far as placing gear, if he's doing trad during those months, he'll be more than ready. Climbing aid pitches will certainly expound on his gear knowledge/experience MUCH faster than if he were out wanking around on 5.7's all year. Same with everything else.
The best way to learn hauling is to get out and do it. Same with jugging. Same with placements. Just f*#king go do it. Whether it's 23 pitches or 2 pitches. This is not some impossible task, and it's not Reticent Wall. No matter how much preparation you do, the only way it will all click and you will get good with the systems and gain experience is to get up there and do it.
Of course, this is all up to you and who you are. Some people feel like they need to prepare and learn systems for years and go through some mysterious initiation to climb a wall, others just go do it. Usually the guys who just go do it have a higher success rate. So, a year and two months? If you're serious, NO problem. If you're serious, you could do it in a few months no problem. If you are one of those people who wants to spend the next year reading, seeking training, advice, etc... You'll never get off the ground dude.
Use Ricardo as an example, not people preaching doom and gloom.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Aug 14, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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Roman, I used to work in a climbing shop. You'd be surprised how many people need advice when buying climbing shoes--especially their first pair. And while the DIY mentality goes for a lot of the old timers around here, when a newbee signs on and asks for advice on how to get started, you'd best do more than send him to REI.
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ricardo-sf
Sport climber
San Francisco
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Aug 14, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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hehe ..
nefarious is right ..
this is not an impossible task and a few folks have proven that .. you dont need to learn how to haul before you leave the ground .. you dont need to learn how to nail before you leave the ground .. -- i learned all that stuff on the job -- .. i wouldn't recommend it .. but it can be done .. (you need to be fairly sure that you can do it though) ..
.. now .. as far as costs .. you will need (it gets cheaper if you can borrow .. but if you can't then you will need to buy) ..
An AID rack .. depending on the route, an average aid rack is twice as large as a free rack. (give or take) ..
2 sets of cams
2 sets of hybrids
at least 50 carabiners (plus racking biners)
hooks
hammer
runners
rope (you will need 2 of them, 1 to climb 1 to haul)
2 sets of nuts
2 sets of micronuts
grigri
aiders
daisies (adj, or not? -- depends on your taste)
jumars
some sort of hauling device (do you need a 2 to 1?) ..
depending on the route, you may need to add/remove pieces (lurking fear probably means a smaller rack) -- but its your first wall, and i dont see you making good use of a rack on your first wall (ie: backcleaning, etc) -- so more gear is safer.
then you will need to put all this stuff in a bag
1 or 2 haulbags depending on how much beer you bring
.. can you sleep on ledges on lurking fear? -- if you do TT you'll definately need a portaledge .. (buy fish!)
then you will need outdoor gear for the wall
sleeping bag (no down)
do you need a bivy bag?
stove
stuff sacks
first aid kit (at least some stuff to take care of your hands on the wall)
poop tube (you can make your own for fairly cheap from home depot)
finally you're going to need food and water
1 gallon per person per day is luxurious -- but if it gets hot, you will wish you had more
3 meals per day per person
snacks
.. and we haven't even considered the tunes yet.
.. hmm .. if you dont have this stuff already .. figure on spending about
$3000 to $5000 depending on wether you buy new/used high/low quality ..
.. some airfare, and the cost of being in the park (getting to the park), etc .. -- add on another $2000
for comparison .. i already had some gear, but i spent about $3000 on gear + food + other costs for my first ascent on el cap .. the next few ascents cost me about $1000 for gear + stuff (food/camping/gas/etc) per ascent .. (you need replace stuff that breaks, gets hosed) ..
(it can be done alot cheaper -- but i'm spoiled)
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Billy
climber
Boston, Ma
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
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ricardo - Awesome. Truly awesome. You have given me horus worth of stuff to Google. I don't know what a lot of those things are, but I will find out.
3-5 is doable in the next year or so. I don't make a ton of dough, but if I budget properly, I should be good to go.
Facinated by the poop-shoot apparatus...
I'll check out REI. Just to look. I heard that the shoes should be as tight as they can be, i.e. as much pain as you can stand. This seems...odd to me, but I guess I could cram into something tiny.
-Billy
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 14, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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I'm not even recommending how you or I learned, Ricardo, which was the same. By all means, go out, get familiar with the systems on some junk crack 20 feet off the ground. Go a few times. But if you spend all your time preparing and reading, waiting for the right time, etc... You're never going to get off the ground and getting off the ground is the only place where you really learn.
edit: Handjammies?!?! :O
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ricardo-sf
Sport climber
San Francisco
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Aug 14, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
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as far as shoes are concerned .. well .. it depends on your taste too, and how hard you want to crank ..
I've had some super tight fit slippers .. and i hated them ..
.. my favorite shoe is a comfortable Mythos pair .. -- i size them 1 size smaller than my regular street shoe (or 1 1/2 .. i can't rememebr) -- ..
.. anyways those shoes rock -- you can wear them all day long .. they rock in trad situations ... and you are not trying to take them off at every belay because your foot is about to explode ..
.. btw .. the mythos are worth every penny ..
 ricardo
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Sascha
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Aug 14, 2008 - 05:26pm PT
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Your climbing shoes should NOT be so tight that they hurt. That's for people who climb HARD things. Your shoes just need to be tight enough that your toes don't move around inside them and you can stand on a reasonably small edge. Go to REI and ask for a basic beginner shoe - preferably a solid, straightforward trad climbing shoe. Or try a slipper like the Moccasym. Once they stretch, you can wear them with socks - it may look dorky, but works for many people. I can wear my comfy trad shoes (5.10 Spires) with Smartwool socks for a whole day without taking them off and they don't hurt.
But by the way, you won't be wearing your climbing shoes for most of Lurking Fear anyway, because you'll be stepping into nylon loops, not onto the rock. For that, you want your approach shoes...
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ricardo-sf
Sport climber
San Francisco
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Aug 14, 2008 - 05:30pm PT
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To get started here is a list of things to buy:
For the gym..
all you need is shoes / harness / chalk bag / belay device .. you'll spend about $250
For outside topropping
you'll need a rope, some webbing, some biners, some lockers, (assumes you use bolts for anchors), you'll spend about $300 (maybe less since its a topropping rope .. you can go with a cheaper rope.
For outside leading
you'll need a free rack, maybe a better harness than that POS you bought for the gym.
about $1250 for a new rack of shiny BD's and some aliens, some stoppers, a gear sling, some biners, some lockers, a webolette or a some other belay building device.
To start practicing aid
I attempted to start praciticing aid on my free rack -- bad idea.. not enough gear to do more than a 80' pitch .. you need more gear -- so borrow some..
You'll also need, jumars, aiders, daisies, hammer (to get the nuts out), -- maybe you'll also get an aid harness (one of those big cushy numbers from yates) ..
About $500 in gear (unless you go and get a 2nd free rack, then add on another $1250) ..
.. when you actually get around to thinking about a wall .. get some decent hiking boots .. you soles will thank you after hours of standing on slings .. -- cheap boots will last you 1 ascent (i destroyed a pair on a single wall once) -- decent boots will last several ascents..
.. some stuff is just fine to buy used (portaledge, haulbag, sleeping bag, etc ..) --some stuff you need to be careful when buying used .. (ie: protection)
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scuffy b
climber
Elmertown
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Aug 14, 2008 - 09:44pm PT
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but where could I get one if I did?
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Aug 14, 2008 - 09:46pm PT
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It's taken me 3 years to get to the valley and be able to lead things on my own. Maybe it's because I had to teach myself everything. Maybe I'm just slow as piss. Your mileage may vary billy.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Aug 14, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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Maybe it's because you go to REI instead of a shop where someone can sell you good gear attached to great advice.
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Sascha
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Aug 15, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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Now about that getting in shape thing... do you do any other sports? I think your overall fitness and endurance is most important, so you don't bonk after a couple of hours on the climb. Running, cycling, walking, rowing, climbing gym, whatever - mix it up, but get your body accustomed to being on the move all day.
I just met a lady on Mt Conness who said she thought she was all prepared to do a long climb (they were doing the North Ridge) because she's a marathon runner. Wrong-o. On the descent trail, she was nearly in tears: "I've been moving for NINE HOURS!!" Get used to it.
Do some LONG hikes with a backpack and be aware of your water & food needs. Learn to drink before you're thirsty and eat before you're hungry. If you suddenly find yourself with a really bad attitude in the middle of your workout, chances are you haven't had enough to eat or drink.
Make your haulbag one of your first investments. Throw a bunch of phone books or water bottles in there and get on the stairmaster... Better yet, take it to do all your shopping on foot.
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ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 15, 2008 - 01:28am PT
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EAT SOME F*#KING CARBS!!!
High protean diets work by forcing your body into an unhealthy state where it begins to digest itself. They might work for short term weight loss but sap your energy over time. Your goal should be to train your body to perform at a high level for large amounts of time. The only way to do this is to push to the point of exhaustion as often as you can stand. Weight loss will happen on its own, you need fuel.
Bike commute. Run stairs. Never take elevators. When its too wet to climb go for 15-30 mile hikes. Wake up early and try for 10+ pitch (one rope length of climbing more or less) days. Eat like an athlete not some sedentary diet-fad crazed fool. Give your body good fuel, complex carbs, lean protean, even some fat as you push it past its current limits and it will develop more strength then you thought possible.
Sell your TV. If you go to bed an hour early you can train for an hour in the morning.
Get the book "How to Rock Climb" by john long and the big wall book mentioned above (by John Long and John Midendorf).
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jstan
climber
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Aug 15, 2008 - 02:41am PT
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Take care that this does not turn into an internet exercise. I have not been to Quincy so this is a blind suggestion. To start pick things well within your ability and try to cover lots of distance. The quarry walls are short so you and Bob may trade off in heats and even do many repeats if a lot of routes don't have ropes on them. Climb up. down climb, climb up, down climb etc, etc, etc. No stops for rest. Being adept at downclimbing is good, occasionally necessary. Go till you are burned out, then switch roles. If Quincy is too crowded for this to be possible you may have to find another place.
Shoes you plan to use with ets should be comfortable and with good arch support. They may be your free climbing shoes, they may not. If the free climbing is run out 5.7 you will need to be good in your shoes. To get used to running out do easy slabs and them work into harder ones. Again, cover ground. Lots of ground. Up, down, sideways, does not matter. Does not matter whether or not it is a route. Indeed you will need to be able to deal with traversing which is a game different from up/down. When you can move on the rock, you have found a new home.
People were into tight shoes like EB's many years ago and I have seen a lot of people with ruined feet. FWIW having painful feet never got me up anything. My suggestion is get a pair with velcro closure that feel entirely comfortable when loose while wearing thin dacron hiking socks. (Some people go without socks so that is another option.) Have space at the end so the ends of your toes are not touching. They must not touch. (Pare down your toenails beforehand.) Then insist on their feeling very tight when you tighten up the velcro. Then to make sure they are not too small change to a pair of thicker socks and insist on still being able to get into the shoes without painful pressure on the ends of the toes.
If you have a rope, free shoes, slings, and biners, on top rope you can have gotten used to covering a lot of ground by the time you find someone to teach you leading. Then when you and Bob are leading you can go back to covering ground again. You probably won't "be covering ground" on 5.10 but leading competently at that level should be in your game plan.
At that point you need to get on Yosemite rock. Plan on starting all over again, for that is what it will be like.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 15, 2008 - 10:53am PT
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151 posts -
What is the longest Jeff Batten troll here on Supertopo?
151 posts seems like a pretty good haul to me.
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Billy
climber
Boston, Ma
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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No haul. No troll. But we addresses that above. No biggie.
Anyway, didn't get to the gym last night. No lack of commitment, just worked a 14 hour day. Did manage the salad, brocolli and egg whites again, though.
Carbs definitely need to make an appearance. I'm dragging at work and in the gym. Had a bagel this morning with the eggs. Feel great. Did not weight myself. Probably won't til Monday. More concerned with developing the necessary technical skills to make it up the face, though.
I'm buying shoes, and possibly a harness this weekend. I also need a rope, but I may wait on that for a week or two. I think I can use Bobby's.
Speaking of Bobby - He's down for the trip, but he may be in Maryland this weekend, which will hinder my trip to Quincy Quarries. (No rope.) Can I climb there without? (Roman, I'm looking at you for this one.)
jstan - Daps. Thank you again, sir.
-Billy
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jstan
climber
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Aug 15, 2008 - 12:29pm PT
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Long days are like that. Doing sets of exercise every hour or two keeps you going.
My longest was 48 hours. Took that long for the crystal to grow. Knew I wouldn't be able to sleep so I ran a couple miles in the snow. Did the trick.
Edit:
Watch out on Cannon. In the past at least, before the Old Man fell off, some pretty big stuff was loose.
Jeff:
I was hoping you would ask. Those routes are both dangerous and very hard. But if you can do three one finger front levers with either arm, you should be OK. Especially if you can then push them out into a one finger German.
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ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 15, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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Traversing (on real rock or at the gym) is a good way to get millage in without a partner. You just climb back and forth close enough to the ground that you feel comfortable jumping down when you need to. Find ways you can rest and shake out your arms on the wall but strive to develop a constant level of "pump" (forearm exertion for non climbers i guess?) over the course of 15-20 minutes on the wall. Set a goal in minutes, if you get too pumped and need to jump down before your time is up jump back on the wall. When you are done, rest for half the time you were on the wall then repeat a few more times (usually ~3 total for after work, maybe more on the weekend).
Music helps, i did this a few times a week for a few months one winter and worked up to being able to do three one hour traverses on the gym wall.
This will help you develop the technique and endurance needed to do lots of moderate climbing, if you get interested in climbing harder you will need to start training power and power endurance but don't worry about those for now.
Combine endurance workouts with climbing (biking to the climbing gym, climbing until your arms are tired then going running or just going climbing somewhere that requires a bit of hiking to get too) or finding other ways to work out more then once in a day may be helpful in speeding things up.
Eat carbs before during and after workouts. Light snacks like healthy granola bars, various energy goos and trail mix work well for me. "Alpinists" on long pushes will often try and eat a packet of goo ever half hour or so. Drinking water is important too.
Let fitness be your goal not weight loss, measure your self by how long you can spend on the wall, how far you can run etc...
Spend as much time on granite as you can, there is nothing else quite like it, plastic doesen't even come close. ( i think cannon and cathedral are granite?)
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