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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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LOL!
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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Heathen, your absolutely right. It's frustrating to see this from the inside too. This type of treatment is even directed toward divorced women/men within the church as well some times. I think your experience is due to scared parents trying to shelter their kids from "Bad" examples. What's frustrating is, that the church teaches opposite of this. We're taught to except and invite everyone into the gospel, that everyone is a "sinner" and in need of Christ's atonement. But for some reason, this constant lesson is constantly put aside. I don't know what to do about it other than teach my own children and any others I might be able to influence, to do as you say above. As the subject of the OP lays out, and as I am testament to, we are not perfect people. We struggle as much as any others, and we have some serious fear of others knowing our weaknesses, so we hide them and pretend they're not there. I really am sorry that the LDS people you've known failed to understand and follow such a simple principal.
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HeathenInZion
climber
Utah
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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No-One,
You’ve misunderstood me if you think that I feel frustrated. I’m not frustrated, I’m bitter towards Utah Mormons. I’ve seen the same old patterns here in Zion for too long. You don’t show much passion when it comes to changing the status quo here. Not like when you get on the defensive about your doctrine. If you aren’t willing to get in your fellow LDS member’s faces when they are discriminating against non-mormons, (with the same passion that your retorts on this forum have had) then things will never change. More bitterness will be generated towards your church and its members.
I noticed the accepting of others is tied into inviting them into the gospel. If you can’t separate the accepting part from selling of your religion to others you should just admit you don’t want to accept people how they are.
If people want to join your church I think they can find it.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 12, 2007 - 05:10pm PT
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"If there was a point in there I must have missed it."
Having problems understanding Dingus? Or is it just Cynics Block?
I'd be honored to help you with semantics if you're not proud. I know it's a big daddy step from fanthoming Steinbeck to understanding my grandiose stuff.
(Hint--Ron's original post about Mountain Meadows and lessons from it)
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
beyond the (horst and) graben...
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Sep 12, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
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Emmm!!...I'm thinkin'..Turkey Burgers!
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Sep 12, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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Heathen.... "You’ve misunderstood me if you think that I feel frustrated."
No, I understood quite well that you are "bitter". I was saying that "I" am frustrated.
" You don’t show much passion when it comes to changing the status quo here. Not like when you get on the defensive about your doctrine."
I'm wondering when you feel I've shown such passion in, and got defensive about my doctrine?
"If you aren’t willing to get in your fellow LDS member’s faces when they are discriminating against non-mormons, (with the same passion that your retorts on this forum have had)"
I will "get in the face" (verbally disagree) with anyone I'm aquatinted with or having a conversation with that shows discrimination toward any other person, especially if it's "Mormons" doing the discrimination.
"I noticed the accepting of others is tied into inviting them into the gospel."
I've noticed this as well, and it bothers me too. It's not what the gospel teaches.
The rest of your reply seems to be pretty general even though you use the word "YOU" and "YOUR" over and over. I think I understand that your not really talking about "me"
By the way, I was trying to convey, that I understand why so many people are bitter towards us. Guess I suck at conveying.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 12, 2007 - 05:53pm PT
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"OK jennie I'll bite... the lessons you seemed to portray deftly put a significant portion of the blame for the slaughter on the victims. You say the massacre was inexecusable in one breathe and then detail how the killers were provoked in the next. That seems circular logic to me, hence my question.
What was your point? WHAT lesson?"
The essence of what I'm saying is it was pride rather than religious fervor that brought on the massacre. Pride on both sides. Of course the Momons were provoked! But the provocation didn't warrant the massacre. The militiamen should have had to atone for the crime with their own lives. (And it WAS obviously a crime.) But if lessons are learned, don't we admit such atrocities don't happen in a vacum. Such admission doesn't excuse the perpetrators.
Is that circular logic?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 12, 2007 - 06:06pm PT
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Pride is a competitive essence. If one practices religion with a "me first, to hell with everyone else"posture then pride is a component of religious fervor.
If religion is practiced with unselfishness and consideration for the interests of others, (which is basic Christian doctrine) pride is taken out of the equation.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 06:07pm PT
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It all makes perfect sense. It's the fattrad skinhead school of retribution
An Arab blows up someone in Iraq so the only logical response is for a gang of hooligans to murder an East Indian in Portland.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 07:04pm PT
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Yes. Just smile and agree.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2007 - 07:10pm PT
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Lets not forget a baser reason for the incident. The emigrants were neither gumbies nor dirtbags. In fact they were quite well off and experiencedf. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the rumors of false bottoms in their well made oak wagons holding gold and other valuables were true.
Even if not, the wagons and stock themselves had substantial value.
No doubt such considerations made it just a little easier to not let them pass.
The killers kept the few spared children didn't they?
Were there ever any efforts at restitution with the relatives?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 07:57pm PT
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fattrad said, DMT,
Jennie is making the same case that I make in the "Clash" threads. The Islamic world is angry at the Judeo/Christian world for perceived injustices and therefore terrorism is justified. The massacre occurred because of past deeds committed against the Mormons.
Jody's evil twin.
he has a point. islamic fundamentalists perform 911. america gets pissed. we go to afghanistan. but our thirst for revenge is not sated. our prez tells us that its iraq who is at fault and if we dont get them then they have wmd's and they will get us. so we get them and get them and get some more until we get so tired of it that we want to give up. we realize that we wont be sated in iraq, it was the wrong place to go for that.
sorry offtopic i know....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 07:58pm PT
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btw kallie, you look like way to cute and clean of a young woman to hang out with the likes of this crew....
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 08:23pm PT
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When something good happens, God scores. If lightning strikes a church, who gets the points?
Seems to me, it can't be the Devil cause he's trying to win folks to his side and that wouldn't endear the old booger to them.
Maybe it's the Mud People.
"does any man know where the love of God goes, When the waves turn the minutes to hours" Gordon Lightfoot
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2007 - 09:03pm PT
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"I'm sorry you find such doctrine so bitter."
I don't, I find it laughable except for the fact people actually buy into this kind of stuff.
"Perhaps a cup of Jim Jones' New World Kool Aid would taste sweeter to you."
Actually, I was working with Leo Ryan at the time of his death at the hands of another temple-based cult not all that disimilar from LDS and its various stepchildren. I find absolutely no distinction whatsoever between Joseph Smith and Jim Jones beyond Smith having a better head for business and decent relationships with the local people where they ultimately landed. Both had similarly disaffected and fraudulent pasts and were forced to wander largely due to them repeatedly alienating community after community.
Whatever distinction you see between them should give you pause - it's all still just the claim of god speaking to and through two extremely dubious white guys. Throw in a third clever white guy - L.Ron Hubbard - into the mix and now you have a real match for Joseph Smith. Smith and Hubbard's stories are an even closer match than Smith and Jones. All three were deviously clever in an odd, but effective way and were relentlessly manipulative liars of the highest order. Smith and Hubbard were ultimately, and unfortunately, successful in their endeavors, Jones simply was not.
"If not, I hope your own personal enlightenment burns brightly enough and your wisdom is so wonderously developed that you can afford to continue in looking down on the sincere beliefs of others and refer to them as "other voodoo"."
Funny, you LDS folks, as do most religions, do far more "looking down" on others beliefs than I. Proxy baptisms for people of other faiths? How more contemptful of others' faiths could you possibly get...
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Sep 13, 2007 - 12:09am PT
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No One said "What's harder to believe?
That ancient people wrote their history down on gold plates, or
that a poor, uneducated boy could fabricate a history of an ancient people that even today cannot be proved wrong? "
" Cannot be proven wrong?" I would have thought that the burden of proof would rest very firmly with those making the claims of .....oh lets say... a Jewish empire in North America 2000 years ago.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 09:08am PT
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" Cannot be proven wrong?" I would have thought that the burden of proof would rest very firmly with those making the claims of .....oh lets say... a Jewish empire in North America 2000 years ago."
Who is making a claim of a Jewish empire in North America 2000 years ago?
The Book of Mormon is NOT about Jews in North America. It's a history of people from the tribe of Manasseh who came to the so-called New World in the sixth century B.C. and who spoke in a Hebrew dialect and wrote in reformed Egyprtian.
You're welcome to your skepticism. But everyone who lived in the Middle East at that time was not "Jewish". The Bible is quite clear that Jews (the tribe of Judah) were descendants of Judah, the fourth son of Jacob and Leah. The Book of Mormon people did not come from the lineage of Judah.
I mean no personal offense. But if you choose to contend against Mormon belief, your argument carries more weight if you target genuine Mormon beliefs rather than "reinterpreted" doctrine packed up and hung as something to kick and punch.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 09:17am PT
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"Here's the lesson I observe... most religions seem to take the good praise and wash their hands of the criticism.
A bunch of them do something horrible and it 'wasn't religion NO. It was PRIDE. It was the DEVIL!'
But if they do something wonderful its all the blessings of religion, the spirit of the Lordh.
Dingus, do you really believe it was religious fervor that led the Mormon militiamen to murder the Fancher party? Where in mormon doctrine does it allow for massacre of innocents? If you care to inspect true mormon doctrine you'll find STATED that shedding innocent blood is unforgivable and must be atoned for.
Yes, people want to evade criticism, but thats a trait of the race in general, not just the religious or those who feign belief in religion. And you could fill a library with history of religiously aligned people who did evil things. Does that mean religion made them do it? The ethics component of religion is meant to DETER people from evil. If religion teaches thou shall not kill, thou shalt not steal, and I'm in church on Sunday but on Monday I rob and murder someone, is it logical to imply that religion made me do it?
"I'm sorry you find such doctrine so bitter."
"I don't, I find it laughable except for the fact people actually buy into this kind of stuff."
Have a good laugh, Healyje !
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 13, 2007 - 09:50am PT
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Thank you for your candor. Were only 179 degrees apart, now.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 13, 2007 - 10:11am PT
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Jennie, Kallie, et al.
I have a question about the missions that many LDS young people go on. Did you do it? What is your take on it? Do you feel that people in developing countries are truly helped by this, or is diverting them from their own culture and traditions more harmful in the end?
To try to show that my question is sincere, I include part of my post from another Piton Ron thread about Mormons from the summer.
Peter
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Once, on a sunday morning during the OR show, a bit bleary from the climber parties the eve before, (probably had been carousing with you Ron!) I woke up in an apartment two blocks uphill from Temple Square. I set out on foot, hair disheveled, shorts and sandals, to find a double espresso to clear the fog. Right away, I was a stranger in a strange land, every human in view was dressed up in their Sunday best and heading for church. I felt like a thirsty pygmy from the rainforest plopped down in the Sahara and looking for a cool spot. I wandered around for a little while and realized my caffeine mission was futile.
I remember being struck by the power inherent in a ritual that such a large percentage of a local society shared together once a week. Sure, it is power that can be misused, and often is, but it is kind of beautiful as well to witness a community with such a strong culture of mutual reliance and shared time together. I often think our larger diverse society would benefit from some kind of weekly neighborhood communal gathering that moved beyond a blind faith and celebrated diverse spirituality and community.
When flying out of SLC I am always a little creeped out by the line of 18 year old missionaries being unleashed upon the developing world. Again I feel mixed, I think all 18 year olds would benefit from a peace corp like experience, but those kids would be far more helpful if they traveled to Africa loaded down with condoms and mosquito nets to distribute rather than "the good word".
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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